Chronic Fatique Syndrom - anti depressants

Author

anti depressants

mike

2004-08-26, 11:08 am

hi I expect this is a very old question but ...... my doctor wants to
prescribe anti depressants for my CFS. Is there a body of
experience/views on this?

cheers
--
mike

Mansager, Kimberly

2004-08-26, 11:08 am

I'm pretty much against using them for anything besides what they were
designed for- depression. My doctor wanted to do the same thing, but I
refused to take them I'm pretty convinced that the doctors that try to
prescribe traditional antidepressants such as paxil or things of the
sort are, overall, inexperienced with CFS and don't know about all of
the other treatments that are out there. I've known many people who have
taken anti-depressants for varying amounts of time for varying
illnesses, and I've never heard anything good about them. So personally,
I'd never take them for CFS and if I were you I'd tell your doctor that
he needs to find an alternative way to treat your symptoms. That's what
I've done. And while unfortunately I may be having to find another
physician, I think it's better than becoming complacent about my
condition and on anti-depressants I don't need to be on. But that's just
me

Sorry, this is an issue I'm pretty passionate about, so don't mind me

Good luck

-Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome discussion CFIDS/ME
[mailto:CFS-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of mike
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 10:37 AM
To: CFS-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: anti depressants

hi I expect this is a very old question but ...... my doctor wants to
prescribe anti depressants for my CFS. Is there a body of
experience/views on this?

cheers
--
mike

Ken

2004-08-26, 7:08 pm

mike wrote:
>
> hi I expect this is a very old question but ...... my doctor wants to
> prescribe anti depressants for my CFS. Is there a body of
> experience/views on this?
>
> cheers
> --
> mike

Hi Mike:

I have been a person with ME since Jan. of 1987
I have NEVER used anti D's.
MY doc tried me on a couple about 7 months in - - told him I didn't
need "stuff", that augmented the "cognitive dysfunction" and made me
"sleep more", than I was already sleeping.

If you CHECK the side effects of ANY antiD; you will find they cause
CARDIAC PROBLEMS. THE Cardiac SIDE EFFECTS do NOT show up usually
until sometime after the tenth year _ and then its a matter of time
before the great reaper gathers your bones!

They don't come out in the literature and SAY SO - but rather they
use innocent phrases like":
may cause irregular heartbeat;
may cause palpitations;
may cause changes in blood pressure;
NOTE that ALL those MAY CAUSE side effects are cardiac related and
are abnormalities in cardiac function. Note also that these symptoms
are prime areas of concern when one suffers a heart attack!

AntiD's were NEVER intended for long term use. THis CFS stuff is a
life long affliction.

Best just face facts and accept your life has "changed" - and utilize
your greatest gift: "the ability to adapt to your surroundings".
You now have a new life: you need to learn how to live within its
boundaries - which incidentally is not too different from life prior
to ME/CFS. We NEVER could jump over the moon, nor fly - we Lived
WITHIN our capabilities then - and so we must now!

Regards:
Ken (MESS) http://cfids-cab.org/mess
mailto:m.e.s.s-@sympatico.ca
Yahoo Voice Conference: <ken_mess>

Kathy Froese

2004-08-26, 7:08 pm

Ken, I take exception to this strident condemnation of
anti-depressants. No, I'm not taking them so I'm not being
defensive.

There are people who are depressed and who need this
medication. If they do not take them, (perhaps on your
advice), they may choose to meet the "grim reaper" on their
own.

This troubles me. Because there are people desperately
looking for direction and yours is a strong voice because
you are a strong person.

Some PWC's are not able to get out at all. Some are
bedridden. I know this is not the case for you. Please
practice a more gentle approach. Don't scare people who are
already terrified and confused.

There are also people who suffer from life-long depression.
As my doctor always says about medications, "Weigh the
benefits and the negatives, then make a decision".

Kathy F.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <m.e.s.s-@sympatico.ca>

> Hi Mike:
>
> I have been a person with ME since Jan. of 1987
> I have NEVER used anti D's.
> MY doc tried me on a couple about 7 months in - - told him
> I didn't
> need "stuff", that augmented the "cognitive dysfunction"
> and made me
> "sleep more", than I was already sleeping.
>
> If you CHECK the side effects of ANY antiD; you will find
> they cause
> CARDIAC PROBLEMS. THE Cardiac SIDE EFFECTS do NOT show up
> usually
> until sometime after the tenth year _ and then its a
> matter of time
> before the great reaper gathers your bones!

<SNIPPED>

Ken

2004-08-26, 7:08 pm

Hello Kathy et al:

To each their own.
The gentleman asked for advice: i pointed out the SIDE EFFECTS.

I have known "many" over the past 18 year who succumbed to "Cardiac
Failure" after 10-13 years on antiD therapy; I feel a moral obligation
to point out the "less than obvious".

Sorry if I seem strident or strong; but I do face reality and it is
with the patients best interests at heart.

One can always "wean off them WITH their Physicians Assistance", or
continue - its the individual's choice: but at least they now KNOW
the long term ramifications!

I spent the better part of the first two years IN BED; however I
was fortunate enough to have a good support group leader who taught
me alternative ways of dealing with this DD, and it was NOT with
antiD's.

This DD REQUIRES the patient to make severe changes in life style
diet and outlook.

FWIW: If you think i didn't suffer from reactionary depression, you
all are very mistaken; however, i did overcome it by simply facing
the fact (Many times and buckets of tears) (called grieving for my
former lifestyle)(working hard and playing twice as hard) - it was
not easy - -
- - one night; i was practising meditation and found myself
re-experiencing a day in the mountains - (one in which i was some
12,00 ft above sea level - looking east over the rocky mountains,
south to Mt. Baker, and West to the coastal range. I had sat there
for a couple of hours and watched the cloud effects of a weather
front move in - - - - i started to cry that night as i knew i would
never ever be able to do that type of thing again - nor fish on the
ocean; wade a trout or salmon stream; nor fish sharks again - - and
it DAWNED upon my consciousness that i HAD DONE Those things - - I
HAD HAD those extraordinary experiences, and no one, nothing, nor
anything could erase them from my memory.

If you think one ever forgets the mental images of learning to "quik
step", in the back of a 22 ft boat, loaded with a thrashing 6 ft shark
ya gots another "think", to do! <G>

No: i will Never be Able to DO IT Again, but I will never forget it
either. But the main point i am trying to make is that this dd
requires a change in our life style - we MUST adapt to our current
limitations or in other words: we have the opportunity to play soccer
on a field where there are no visible or tangible boundaries - - those
boundaries are invisible and arbitrarily set by the referee (our
bodies physiological capability).

Our capacity "to do", changes: monthly, weekly and even daily -
depending on the state of our immune system; our diet, and how
much physiological or mental energy we have used the pervious
day or days. ALL THOSE factors GOVERN what we are capable of
doing today!

One does NOT need one's brain impaired by chemicals that BLUNT the
synapse between the nerve ends to inhibit the bodies self defence
signals which warn us when we are starting to overdo or go beyond
what our body is capable of that day. That only impedes our overall
capacity to combat this illness.

There is NO Magic Pill. This disease process is not like anything
anyone ever experienced in their previous years. It is totally new
and devastating until we learn how to accept it and make the necessary
corrections.

Think of a ship at sea: the captain (our self) makes hourly checks
on the ships position and course: makes appropriate corrections. He
is never blinded by drugs - (with the exception of the Valdez which
spilt oil in Alaska a number of years ago) - The captain constantly
watches his course and corrects for wind and tides. We must be the
captain of our lives and amend OUR course with a clear mind.

Regards:
Ken (MESS) http://cfids-cab.org/mess
mailto:m.e.s.s-@sympatico.ca
Yahoo Voice Conference: <ken_mess>

Kathy Froese wrote:
>
> Ken, I take exception to this strident condemnation of
> anti-depressants. No, I'm not taking them so I'm not being
> defensive.
>
> There are people who are depressed and who need this
> medication. If they do not take them, (perhaps on your
> advice), they may choose to meet the "grim reaper" on their
> own.
>
> This troubles me. Because there are people desperately
> looking for direction and yours is a strong voice because
> you are a strong person.
>
> Some PWC's are not able to get out at all. Some are
> bedridden. I know this is not the case for you. Please
> practice a more gentle approach. Don't scare people who are
> already terrified and confused.
>
> There are also people who suffer from life-long depression.
> As my doctor always says about medications, "Weigh the
> benefits and the negatives, then make a decision".
>
> Kathy F.
-

Mansager, Kimberly

2004-08-26, 7:08 pm

Kathy -

I agree that there are people that are depressed and who need
anti-depressants. But ultimately I do think that Ken is right

As far as chronic illnesses are concerned, anti-depressants aren't the
answer. There are too many health ramifications (which we all know we
really can't afford), and it really is just a patch for a problem that
is too large for just a patch.

For most people, especially for people like us, behavior modification
and therapy, and also group support are far better options. In fact,
many psychologists point to this being the case for people with mild to
moderate depression in general. Of course those who have severe
depression with suicidal tendencies may need the help of medications,
but they are the few and far between. Many in the health industry say
that anti-depressants are over-prescribed right now for a number of
reasons, and site that the behavioral modification approach is a better
way to go about treatment

Support and understanding, are keys to coping with chronic illnesses,
and many times anti-depressants can do more harm than good

-Kim

-----Original Message-----
From: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome discussion CFIDS/ME
[mailto:CFS-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Kathy Froese
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 2:45 PM
To: CFS-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: anti depressants

Ken, I take exception to this strident condemnation of
anti-depressants. No, I'm not taking them so I'm not being
defensive.

There are people who are depressed and who need this
medication. If they do not take them, (perhaps on your
advice), they may choose to meet the "grim reaper" on their
own.

This troubles me. Because there are people desperately
looking for direction and yours is a strong voice because
you are a strong person.

Some PWC's are not able to get out at all. Some are
bedridden. I know this is not the case for you. Please
practice a more gentle approach. Don't scare people who are
already terrified and confused.

There are also people who suffer from life-long depression.
As my doctor always says about medications, "Weigh the
benefits and the negatives, then make a decision".

Kathy F.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken" <m.e.s.s-@sympatico.ca>

> Hi Mike:
>
> I have been a person with ME since Jan. of 1987
> I have NEVER used anti D's.
> MY doc tried me on a couple about 7 months in - - told him
> I didn't
> need "stuff", that augmented the "cognitive dysfunction"
> and made me
> "sleep more", than I was already sleeping.
>
> If you CHECK the side effects of ANY antiD; you will find
> they cause
> CARDIAC PROBLEMS. THE Cardiac SIDE EFFECTS do NOT show up
> usually
> until sometime after the tenth year _ and then its a
> matter of time
> before the great reaper gathers your bones!

<SNIPPED>

Victoria Towell

2004-08-27, 2:07 am

I take 50mg Zoloft ( A low dose). It helps a bit, seem a bit clearer and
able to cope better. DO NOT take full depression doses unless you also have
clinical depression. I got very sick when I was put on high dose of Effexor.
Cheers Victoria

> hi I expect this is a very old question but ...... my doctor wants to
> prescribe anti depressants for my CFS. Is there a body of
> experience/views on this?
>
> cheers
> --
> mike

Cheryl4329@aol.com

2004-08-27, 7:07 am

In a message dated 8/26/2004 3:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
KMansager@porterwright.com writes:

> Of course those who have severe
> depression with suicidal tendencies may need the help of medications,
> but they are the few and far between. Many in the health industry say
> that anti-depressants are over-prescribed right now for a number of
> reasons, and site that the behavioral modification approach is a better
> way to go about treatment
>
>

Kim,
part of your statement is true for those who can
afford a very good psychiatrist or psychologist,
like the behavior modification and support groups
if good ones are available. But, as far as those
who have major depressive issues being few
and far between, that's not how it really is. There
are huge numbers of people majorly depressed
and because of the fear of being stigmatized or
not being able to get the help they need they
aren't being accounted for.

Also, very low income or no income is a great
issue. Look at the many homeless a great
majority of these ones are majorly depressed
and they are counted at all. A lot of the MHC's
are poorly staffed. Some doctors are fine and
some aren't. Misdiagnosing, underdiagnosing
not really listening and/or non compassionate.
This can happen with the higher paid doctors
too. I've experienced it both ways sad to say.

Cheryl

Cheryl4329@aol.com

2004-08-27, 7:07 am

In a message dated 8/27/2004 1:50:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
vtowell@optusnet.com.au writes:

> hi I expect this is a very old question but ...... my doctor wants to
>

AD's don't help with the actual disease aspects of
CFIDS. If you are very depressed because of your
experience they can help with that. But if you are
having mild depression you might want to consider
alternative aids to help. Some people experience
pain with the illness but, not everyone. For me and
many others the profound fatigue is the primary
issue at least in the early years.

I also have Fibromyalgia which is a muscle disorder
that causes pain. Some are misdiagnosed with CFIDS
when they really have Fibromyalgia. Pain is the primary
issue with it and fatigue is a part too. It has been found
that serotonin can help with chronic pain so doctors
will often prescribe an SSRI to see if if helps a persons
pain. One that I was prescribed helped with my severe
FMS for a long time.

take care,

Cheryl

Mansager, Kimberly

2004-08-27, 11:08 am

Cheryl:

Most of the homeless are not necessarily depressed per-se, but have
other mental illness such as schizophrenia and such. In those cases,
medication is of course a good solution. And in many municipalities,
there isn't aid for them for medication, therapy, or otherwise. That's
why they're homeless!

Finding people who are compassionate is a key to treatment, whether you
are severely depressed or not, and whether you need therapy or meds.
There are many people in this country who are severely depressed you are
right, but statistically there are many more who have mild depression
who could do without meds.

It's hard to find good doctors regardless of what route of treatment you
decide to take

-----Original Message-----
From: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome discussion CFIDS/ME
[mailto:CFS-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU] On Behalf Of Cheryl4329@aol.com
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 5:58 AM
To: CFS-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Subject: Re: anti depressants

In a message dated 8/26/2004 3:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
KMansager@porterwright.com writes:

> Of course those who have severe
> depression with suicidal tendencies may need the help of medications,
> but they are the few and far between. Many in the health industry say
> that anti-depressants are over-prescribed right now for a number of
> reasons, and site that the behavioral modification approach is a
better
> way to go about treatment
>
>

Kim,
part of your statement is true for those who can
afford a very good psychiatrist or psychologist,
like the behavior modification and support groups
if good ones are available. But, as far as those
who have major depressive issues being few
and far between, that's not how it really is. There
are huge numbers of people majorly depressed
and because of the fear of being stigmatized or
not being able to get the help they need they
aren't being accounted for.

Also, very low income or no income is a great
issue. Look at the many homeless a great
majority of these ones are majorly depressed
and they are counted at all. A lot of the MHC's
are poorly staffed. Some doctors are fine and
some aren't. Misdiagnosing, underdiagnosing
not really listening and/or non compassionate.
This can happen with the higher paid doctors
too. I've experienced it both ways sad to say.

Cheryl

Cheryl4329@aol.com

2004-08-30, 7:08 am

In a message dated 8/27/2004 8:35:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
KMansager@porterwright.com writes:

>
>
> Cheryl:
>
> Most of the homeless are not necessarily depressed per-se, but have
> other mental illness such as schizophrenia and such.

I know but, i mentioned major depression as being
one cause because it is a factor also. The schizo-
phrenia is always mentioned as a big factor for home-
lessness. Huge numbers are just kids who are orphans
because their parents died of AIDS or Wars.
In those cases,
>
> medication is of course a good solution. And in many municipalities,
> there isn't aid for them for medication, therapy, or otherwise. That's
> why they're homeless!

Yes, that is why Some of them are homeless.

>
> Finding people who are compassionate is a key to treatment, whether you
> are severely depressed or not, and whether you need therapy or meds.

That's why i mentioned it and a main reason i fired
my own doctor. She basically refilled meds and not
much else.

> There are many people in this country who are severely depressed you are
> right, but statistically there are many more who have mild depression
> who could do without meds.

I'm not talking statistics. There are many that are not
a part of the numbers. They keep quiet for the reasons
i already stated. no one knows what state of depression
they are in since they aren't talking about it. except may-
be themselves.

>
> It's hard to find good doctors regardless of what route of treatment you
> decide to take
>
I know i already made that point in my first reply.

Mabreen@aol.com

2004-09-01, 2:08 am

In a message dated 8/27/2004 4:14:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
stmaybe@nc.rr.com writes:

> unfortunately, it doesn't feel like *real* energy. it feels like a side
> effect that's borrowing energy from somewhere &i wonder how bad the
> crash will be once i stop taking this drug. its allowing me to
> consistently over exert myself and that concerns me since the actual
> illness that caused the fatigue &brain fog still exists largely untreated.
>

Laura,

This is an interesting reaction to Wellbutrin. It reminds me of my reaction
to Provigil--makes me feel like I'm on borrowed non-refundable time. Know I'm
overdoing it, too.

Wellbutrin did NOT work for me--energy and brain-wise. I started out feeling
more relaxed--then went into a stupor. Couldn't get off the couch or the bed
or anything else for that matter. My doc took me off of it for awhile then
wanted me to try 25 mg. Same darned thing happened.

Glad it's doing something for you, though. Maybe you don't need to rush to
be off of it completely if it is helping.

Just a thought.
Mary

Mabreen@aol.com

2004-09-01, 2:08 am

bobbie sellers

2004-09-01, 4:07 am

Hi Mabreen@aol.com, on 09/01/04, you wrote:

M> In a message dated 8/26/2004 3:55:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
M> KMansager@porterwright.com writes:
M>
M>> Of course those who have severe depression with suicidal
M>> tendencies may need the help of medications, but they are the
M>> few and far between.
M>
M> I am certainly one of these folks. I must have some
M> anti-depressant, anti-convulsant meds to deal with my
M> co-existing bi-polar disorder. Though it was diagnosed just
M> about the same time as my CFIDS, it seems to have some life of
M> its own. I have tried the no-drug route--and it's just
M> impossible for me to function AT ALL.

Anti-depressants can be dangerous in bi-polar disorders.

I am going to send you some information on how I deal with
my bi-polar which is bad enough but may not be as bad as yours.
I am not going to discuss it further here as this is a cfids
group and not a bi-polar group.

M>
M> Just another side to this very complex issue. I agree--if
M> non-drug therapies help--talking, support groups--by all
M> means, try these.
M>
M> If your depression just hangs on or if you develop suicidal
M> ideation (which I have) you really must find some relief--most
M> likely through meds.
M>
M> Mary

I can only agree regarding depression.
later
bliss

--
bobbie sellers - a tired & retired nurse in San Francisco
bliss at california dot com

Money can't buy happiness, but poverty can't buy ANYTHING.
* Sure it can but second-hand and a bit tacky.*
**

stmaybe

2004-09-03, 2:07 am

i've had success with wellbutrin over the last 9 months. my neuro
suggested it as something to try for my severe cognitive problems. he
said it had some kind of activating property that might help info get in
and out of my brain.

other docs suggest anti-depressants and i tried them with no positive
effects. but i was to the point of feeling desperate about the severe
brain fog and was willing to try just about anything. its not only given
me my brain back (to a large degree & when i'm not in the middle of a
bad crash), but its had the side effect of providing energy. (disclaimer
- everyone reacts differently, this is only my experience)

unfortunately, it doesn't feel like *real* energy. it feels like a side
effect that's borrowing energy from somewhere & i wonder how bad the
crash will be once i stop taking this drug. its allowing me to
consistently over exert myself and that concerns me since the actual
illness that caused the fatigue & brain fog still exists largely untreated.

we're getting ready to do a test to see how low a dose (or hopefully no
dose) i can get down to while still retaining access to my mind. i want
to be off the drug. i worry what its doing to my body (though so far the
only negative side effects have been irritability & shifted sleep
schedule). but, emotionally - it sure is easier to deal with the having
cfids when i have a brain that works.

laura

Cheryl4329@aol.com

2004-09-03, 11:06 am