Alcoholism Recovery - What to do? Who to talk with?

Author

What to do? Who to talk with?

Struggling

2005-12-02, 12:50 am

Great wife of 34 years - grown kids - no infidelity - no money problems.
I work at my own company, wife manages real estate. Small circle of
friends, and in the past months it's gotten smaller.

Neither of us drank more than beer or wine, and that in moderation.

Did depression spawn alcohol use, or was it the other way around? Now I
see that she's spending most of her time in a tailspin, reading,
watching television, smoking, drinking, not paying attention to her work
or to her friends. I now have trouble getting her out of the house - to
dinner, shopping, etc. She's not hiding the liquor, but I have just
begun paying attention to the cabinet and discovered that she's
consuming about 14-16 ounces daily. She's becoming a recluse, and is
often tipsy. She remains sweet but a little vacant. She doesn't think
anyone notices how much she's drinking, and when she takes a drink might
say "this is self-medication".

So far I'm playing supportive but ignorant of the magnitude of the
problem. I HATE being a hypocrite - acting.

Where can I go? I don't want to confront this until I know exactly what
to do.

HELP!

strugglingwithit

at

gmail
dot

com

Dan McGown

2005-12-03, 10:53 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jUQjf.37373$0M.3574@fe16.lga...
> Great wife of 34 years - grown kids - no infidelity - no money problems.
> I work at my own company, wife manages real estate. Small circle of
> friends, and in the past months it's gotten smaller.
>
> Neither of us drank more than beer or wine, and that in moderation.
>
> Did depression spawn alcohol use, or was it the other way around? Now I
> see that she's spending most of her time in a tailspin, reading, watching
> television, smoking, drinking, not paying attention to her work or to her
> friends. I now have trouble getting her out of the house - to dinner,
> shopping, etc. She's not hiding the liquor, but I have just begun paying
> attention to the cabinet and discovered that she's consuming about 14-16
> ounces daily. She's becoming a recluse, and is often tipsy. She remains
> sweet but a little vacant. She doesn't think anyone notices how much she's
> drinking, and when she takes a drink might say "this is self-medication".
>
> So far I'm playing supportive but ignorant of the magnitude of the
> problem. I HATE being a hypocrite - acting.
>
> Where can I go? I don't want to confront this until I know exactly what to
> do.
>
> HELP!
>
> strugglingwithit
>
> at
>
> gmail
> dot
>
> com

Struggling,
It's pretty clear at this point that your wife is abusing alcohol.
That is not the same thing as saying that your wife is an alcoholic. They
aren't necessarily the same thing and, at least in the first instance, they
are not treated the same way; although if the abuse continues for a long
enough time the two can converge. That was pretty much me, for example. I
self medicated for other problems until I got myself pretty thoroughly
addicted.
It sounds, from what little we have heard so far, that your wife has
got into her fifties, and you have been with her for more than three
decades, without alcohol addiction having previously been evident.
Something is now bothering her enough that she is medicating for it.
Whatever that thing is, it sounds like the problem that needs to be dealt
with as the primary cause, with the drinking being a symptom.
If it goes on, and if she has the chance to let the drinking blossom
into a full blown alcohol addiction, the stakes get raised a huge amount.
I hear you saying that you hate being a hypocrite and acting. How
about trying some basic honesty? Tell her all of these things, try to talk
it out with her and try to steer her to whatever kind of third party help
might be available. Whether it's a therapist or a minister or a counselor,
she needs to talk to you but she also needs to talk to someone who isn't
you.
Even if she were a full blown alcoholic and in the program, we would be
strongly suggesting a program of vigorous and thorough honesty. It's a good
idea for non-alcoholics, too.
All the best to you and her and please let us know how it goes,
Dan

rosie read n' post

2005-12-03, 10:53 am

can you sit her down and talk with her?
many, many, depressives treat their depression with
alcohol..............a visit to her physician would be a great place to
start.

--

rosie
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED?
http://www.ac.wwu.edu/%7Estephan/USfatalities.html

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jUQjf.37373$0M.3574@fe16.lga...
> Great wife of 34 years - grown kids - no infidelity - no money
> problems.
> I work at my own company, wife manages real estate. Small circle of
> friends, and in the past months it's gotten smaller.
>
> Neither of us drank more than beer or wine, and that in moderation.
>
> Did depression spawn alcohol use, or was it the other way around? Now
> I see that she's spending most of her time in a tailspin, reading,
> watching television, smoking, drinking, not paying attention to her
> work or to her friends. I now have trouble getting her out of the
> house - to dinner, shopping, etc. She's not hiding the liquor, but I
> have just begun paying attention to the cabinet and discovered that
> she's consuming about 14-16 ounces daily. She's becoming a recluse,
> and is often tipsy. She remains sweet but a little vacant. She doesn't
> think anyone notices how much she's drinking, and when she takes a
> drink might say "this is self-medication".
>
> So far I'm playing supportive but ignorant of the magnitude of the
> problem. I HATE being a hypocrite - acting.
>
> Where can I go? I don't want to confront this until I know exactly
> what to do.
>
> HELP!
>
> strugglingwithit
>
> at
>
> gmail
> dot
>
> com

Dudley Do Rite

2005-12-03, 10:53 am

Good luck and God-speed whichever direction you choose to pursue. You don't
mention a duration or timeframe in which her behavior has been noticeably
intoxicated. I can only reinforce Dan & Rosie's advice - you need a
heart-to-heart talk with her. Something is going on. You're obviously
concerned for her health and well being - let her know that. Let her know
how deeply heartfelt and intense your concern for her is. Couples
counseling is always an option too - and you can lay the issue on yourself
(i.e. YOU are having trouble accepting her drinking behavior and want to
know what YOU can do to get better). I've hear good and bad things about
AlAnon but that's another option.

I just said a prayer for you two.

steve

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jUQjf.37373$0M.3574@fe16.lga...
> Great wife of 34 years - grown kids - no infidelity - no money problems.
> I work at my own company, wife manages real estate. Small circle of
> friends, and in the past months it's gotten smaller.
>
> Neither of us drank more than beer or wine, and that in moderation.
>
> Did depression spawn alcohol use, or was it the other way around? Now I
> see that she's spending most of her time in a tailspin, reading, watching
> television, smoking, drinking, not paying attention to her work or to her
> friends. I now have trouble getting her out of the house - to dinner,
> shopping, etc. She's not hiding the liquor, but I have just begun paying
> attention to the cabinet and discovered that she's consuming about 14-16
> ounces daily. She's becoming a recluse, and is often tipsy. She remains
> sweet but a little vacant. She doesn't think anyone notices how much she's
> drinking, and when she takes a drink might say "this is self-medication".
>
> So far I'm playing supportive but ignorant of the magnitude of the
> problem. I HATE being a hypocrite - acting.
>
> Where can I go? I don't want to confront this until I know exactly what to
> do.
>
> HELP!
>
> strugglingwithit
>
> at
>
> gmail
> dot
>
> com

Struggling

2005-12-03, 10:53 am

Thanks for the input, the support.

I'm afraid to confront this unless I know exactly what to do and have
confidence in what I'm taught. Once the issue is addressed openly, it's
toothpaste that can't be put back into the tube. Today I talked with a
physician friend who recommended that one way or another I get her in
front of her own doctor. I suggested an annual physical ("It's time,
honey") but she instantly and flatly rejected the idea.

Surely there's a counselor for this, someone who can ask the right
questions, then tutor me. I do not want to trigger some irrational
reaction or push her further into depression.

Robert McGregor

2005-12-03, 10:53 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:QG6kf.4$8o6.2@fe15.lga...
> Thanks for the input, the support.
>
> I'm afraid to confront this unless I know exactly what to do and
> have confidence in what I'm taught. Once the issue is addressed
> openly, it's toothpaste that can't be put back into the tube. Today
> I talked with a physician friend who recommended that one way or
> another I get her in front of her own doctor. I suggested an annual
> physical ("It's time, honey") but she instantly and flatly rejected
> the idea.
>
> Surely there's a counselor for this, someone who can ask the right
> questions, then tutor me. I do not want to trigger some irrational
> reaction or push her further into depression.

Given their sole reason for existence, friends and family of problem
drinkers, I suggest there is no greater fund of pertinent theory, and
experience, than the world wide fellowship of Al-Anon.

http://www.al-anon.org/meetings/international.html

Struggling

2005-12-03, 10:53 am

Robert McGregor wrote:

> Given their sole reason for existence, friends and family of problem
> drinkers, I suggest there is no greater fund of pertinent theory, and
> experience, than the world wide fellowship of Al-Anon.
>
> http://www.al-anon.org/meetings/international.html

I had hoped for something more private, for reasons you understand.

There's a chapter that meets today at 5pm, midway between our home and
my office, which puts it in my neighborhood, so to speak. At this moment
I plan to be there, but (trust me on this one) it will take willpower to
walk in. Or I can wait for a meeting that's more distant, but I'm not
certain that would be less uncomfortable.

John Royer

2005-12-03, 5:50 pm

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:XXjkf.877$8o6.308@fe15.lga...
> Robert McGregor wrote:
>
>
>
> I had hoped for something more private, for reasons you understand.
>
> There's a chapter that meets today at 5pm, midway between our home and my
> office, which puts it in my neighborhood, so to speak. At this moment I
> plan to be there, but (trust me on this one) it will take willpower to
> walk in. Or I can wait for a meeting that's more distant, but I'm not
> certain that would be less uncomfortable.

Understandably it is uncomfortable, but remeber you are going into a place
where people are getting BETTER. It's not like walking into a sick ward.

As far as your SO it's time to ask the question.......Honey, how come your
drinking so much lately? You aren't doing her any favors by tip toeing
around. At least this way she knows that you know!

Struggling

2005-12-04, 12:50 am

John Royer wrote:

> Understandably it is uncomfortable, but remeber you are going into a place
> where people are getting BETTER. It's not like walking into a sick ward.
>
> As far as your SO it's time to ask the question.......Honey, how come your
> drinking so much lately? You aren't doing her any favors by tip toeing
> around. At least this way she knows that you know!
>
>

I went over there this evening, but never made it inside the church.
Sitting in the car gathering courage I recognized a woman attorney
friend and of course leapt to conclusions, and that made it impossible
for me. Actually I was relieved.

Now I must find a location some miles away.

And I can't approach my wife with this unless I'm scripted. Again, such
words cannot be unsaid, so they must be the right ones.

stuart

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

stuart

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hJukf.7266$Im6.4891@fe14.lga...
> John Royer wrote:
>
place[vbcol=seagreen]
your[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> I went over there this evening, but never made it inside the church.
> Sitting in the car gathering courage I recognized a woman attorney
> friend and of course leapt to conclusions, and that made it impossible
> for me. Actually I was relieved.
>
> Now I must find a location some miles away.
>
> And I can't approach my wife with this unless I'm scripted. Again, such
> words cannot be unsaid, so they must be the right ones.

You got one ego. As if your words are going to have a major impact on her
drinking. You might have made a mistake by not going into that alanon
meeting. I presume you didn't because you saw a friend go in? Some
friendship. She just might have had the same problems you are living and
maybe be just the person to help you. She probably already guesses about
your wife anyhow.
You gotta park that ego of your before you are going to learn anything about
the "problem drinker".

dan mcgown

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

Struggling,
All of the pretty words in the world don't mean anything. What makes a
difference is what you do and not what you just say.
We alcoholics are experts in the subject of b.s. rationalizations that
we give to ourselves and to those around us.
You present us with a situation with your wife that you believe to be
threatening to her health and sanity, and perhaps to your marriage or her
life. You say that it is so serious that you don't want to talk to her
without coaching for fear of saying the wrong thing.
Then you sit in a parking lot and wimp out because you see someone that
you know and might be -- what? Embarassed? Your words say that you love
your wife. Your actions say that you love your wife less than you fear
embarassment.
For each suggestion that is made, you have some reason why that won't
work in your "special" and "unique" situation. I'm sure that most drunks
would recognize that particular line of rationalization.
Stop wringing your hands. Do something. If you still can't even talk
to this woman who has shared your life for 34 years, at least go to the al
anon meeting. Believe me, no one there is waiting for a chance to "out" you
or your wife. They have problems of their own.
Is there something about whatever is bothering her that you don't want
to confront? It seems as though you have talked to everyone but her. Why
is that? Are you just preparing the ground for a divorce in which you can
still be the "good guy," the "long suffering spouse of a drunk?"
If you really want to help her, do some visible thing to help her.
Dan

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hJukf.7266$Im6.4891@fe14.lga...
> John Royer wrote:
>
>
>
> I went over there this evening, but never made it inside the church.
> Sitting in the car gathering courage I recognized a woman attorney friend
> and of course leapt to conclusions, and that made it impossible for me.
> Actually I was relieved.
>
> Now I must find a location some miles away.
>
> And I can't approach my wife with this unless I'm scripted. Again, such
> words cannot be unsaid, so they must be the right ones.

stuart

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

dan mcgown <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:jLWdnSWQX9UHYQ_eRVn-uQ@adelphia.com...
> Struggling,
> All of the pretty words in the world don't mean anything. What makes
a
> difference is what you do and not what you just say.
> We alcoholics are experts in the subject of b.s. rationalizations
that
> we give to ourselves and to those around us.
> You present us with a situation with your wife that you believe to be
> threatening to her health and sanity, and perhaps to your marriage or her
> life. You say that it is so serious that you don't want to talk to her
> without coaching for fear of saying the wrong thing.
> Then you sit in a parking lot and wimp out because you see someone
that
> you know and might be -- what? Embarassed? Your words say that you love
> your wife. Your actions say that you love your wife less than you fear
> embarassment.
> For each suggestion that is made, you have some reason why that won't
> work in your "special" and "unique" situation. I'm sure that most drunks
> would recognize that particular line of rationalization.
> Stop wringing your hands. Do something. If you still can't even
talk
> to this woman who has shared your life for 34 years, at least go to the al
> anon meeting. Believe me, no one there is waiting for a chance to "out"
you
> or your wife. They have problems of their own.
> Is there something about whatever is bothering her that you don't
want
> to confront? It seems as though you have talked to everyone but her. Why
> is that? Are you just preparing the ground for a divorce in which you can
> still be the "good guy," the "long suffering spouse of a drunk?"
> If you really want to help her, do some visible thing to help her.
> Dan

Well said, Dan. I hope he doesn't take offence to our strong words. I hope
he takes them as encouragement.:-)
>
> "Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hJukf.7266$Im6.4891@fe14.lga...
sick[vbcol=seagreen]
friend[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>

dan mcgown

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

"stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:udDkf.151804$yS6.90316@clgrps12...
>
>
> Well said, Dan. I hope he doesn't take offence to our strong words. I hope
> he takes them as encouragement.:-)

Stuart,
Yeah, I wouldn't want to chase him away, but I really would like to see
him get off the dime and help his wife. Everything's always a balance,
right?
Dan

stuart

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

dan mcgown <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Uc6dnfSEbqKUkw7enZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>
> "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:udDkf.151804$yS6.90316@clgrps12...
hope[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Stuart,
> Yeah, I wouldn't want to chase him away, but I really would like to
see
> him get off the dime and help his wife. Everything's always a balance,
> right?
> Dan

Sounds like he's at a loss for what to do, and he can't seem to enter the
room where he'll find out what to do. Sounds like me a little bit. When in
doubt, read the directions, right?

dan mcgown

2005-12-04, 10:50 am

<L> Classic cartoon:
Calvin: This stupid model airplane kit won't fit together right.
Hobbes: Did you read the directions?
Calvin: Do I look like a wuss?

"stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:zdEkf.134767$y_1.123242@edtnps89...
>
> dan mcgown <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:Uc6dnfSEbqKUkw7enZ2dnUVZ_tqdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
> hope
> see
>
> Sounds like he's at a loss for what to do, and he can't seem to enter the
> room where he'll find out what to do. Sounds like me a little bit. When in
> doubt, read the directions, right?
>
>

Struggling

2005-12-04, 12:50 pm

As for 'embarrassment', it wasn't mine that stopped me - I was concerned
about the feelings of the woman I recognized. I need to do something,
and now. I'll be at another location, across town, this afternoon.

As for the talk with my wife, the only advice I've gotten came from a
distant old employee who went through the same thing with a previous
husband decades ago. She said something about having guidance providing
a good idea of what I'm going to say, suggest, do, recommend, ask, etc.
before first opening my mouth.

Thanks.

stuart

2005-12-04, 12:50 pm

Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t5Gkf.10516$zm1.5681@fe16.lga...
> As for 'embarrassment', it wasn't mine that stopped me - I was concerned
> about the feelings of the woman I recognized. I need to do something,
> and now. I'll be at another location, across town, this afternoon.
>
> As for the talk with my wife, the only advice I've gotten came from a
> distant old employee who went through the same thing with a previous
> husband decades ago. She said something about having guidance providing
> a good idea of what I'm going to say, suggest, do, recommend, ask, etc.
> before first opening my mouth.
>
> Thanks.

With a reply like that I would say a meeting would be most helpful, whether
its across town or whatever. Sounds like you would tippytoe around to avoid
hurting "someone else's" feelings certainly your wife's (by the sound of
things) and this "friend".

What about YOUR life and YOUR feelings? Don't they count equally?

Dudley Do Rite

2005-12-04, 5:51 pm

Honestly Struggling, all the seemingly "harsh" words and "in your face"
suggestions merely reflect what WE (and what millions - yup, millions) of us
know what the best of course of section is to take. We "know" it, because
for many of us it was us. Or it was (still is?) someone around us.

We all want to help. Praying is one thing, but faith without action is
dead. Take some action - any action. Every one of us will be right here to
help you through it and to support you with whatever the outcome happens to
be.

Good luck with your Al Anon meeting - rock on! Your taking the first big
step!

steve

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jUQjf.37373$0M.3574@fe16.lga...
> Great wife of 34 years - grown kids - no infidelity - no money problems.
> I work at my own company, wife manages real estate. Small circle of
> friends, and in the past months it's gotten smaller.
>
> Neither of us drank more than beer or wine, and that in moderation.
>
> Did depression spawn alcohol use, or was it the other way around? Now I
> see that she's spending most of her time in a tailspin, reading, watching
> television, smoking, drinking, not paying attention to her work or to her
> friends. I now have trouble getting her out of the house - to dinner,
> shopping, etc. She's not hiding the liquor, but I have just begun paying
> attention to the cabinet and discovered that she's consuming about 14-16
> ounces daily. She's becoming a recluse, and is often tipsy. She remains
> sweet but a little vacant. She doesn't think anyone notices how much she's
> drinking, and when she takes a drink might say "this is self-medication".
>
> So far I'm playing supportive but ignorant of the magnitude of the
> problem. I HATE being a hypocrite - acting.
>
> Where can I go? I don't want to confront this until I know exactly what to
> do.
>
> HELP!
>
> strugglingwithit
>
> at
>
> gmail
> dot
>
> com

dan mcgown

2005-12-05, 12:50 am

So then, I guess that the question is: did you go in this time?

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t5Gkf.10516$zm1.5681@fe16.lga...
> As for 'embarrassment', it wasn't mine that stopped me - I was concerned
> about the feelings of the woman I recognized. I need to do something, and
> now. I'll be at another location, across town, this afternoon.
>
> As for the talk with my wife, the only advice I've gotten came from a
> distant old employee who went through the same thing with a previous
> husband decades ago. She said something about having guidance providing a
> good idea of what I'm going to say, suggest, do, recommend, ask, etc.
> before first opening my mouth.
>
> Thanks.

Struggling

2005-12-05, 12:51 am

dan mcgown wrote:
> So then, I guess that the question is: did you go in this time?

I now have a coach...

More to come.

Sheenah

2005-12-05, 10:51 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t5Gkf.10516$zm1.5681@fe16.lga...
> As for 'embarrassment', it wasn't mine that stopped me - I was
concerned
> about the feelings of the woman I recognized. I need to do something,
> and now. I'll be at another location, across town, this afternoon.

Hi,

Yesterday, I went to an AA meeting and there met someone who is a client
at the place where I work. She is a client whom I like and get on well
with. We recognised each other :^) After the meeting, we had a chat.
She offered me her phone number and invited me to call her. I was happy
to take her number.

I have shared this info because I've been thinking today that meeting
someone I know a little in a support group environment when previously I
had no idea that they also had the need for the same supportive
environment as I sometimes need, could prove to be a blessing :^)

FWIW, just over two years ago, one of my excuses for not going to AA
meetings - I;m' an alcoholic - was fear of meeting someone I knew at
them. Folk here helped me to see that if I did meet someone that I knew
at any meeting I went to, it was because they were there for the same
reason as I was - to be helped to stay not drinking. The folk who got
me thinking this did me a huge favour. They helped me find the courage I
needed to start going to f2f meetings. As a result, I have heard much
that has greatly helped me.

I wish you well.

Sheenah

Dan McGown

2005-12-05, 10:51 am

I am glad for you and I hope that you are now able to help your wife and
yourself. "A thousand mile journey begins with but a single step." It's
great that you have taken that step. Let us know if we can help with the
journey.

By the way, Sheenah is right about the embarassment issue. Just remember
that the people that you meet at a meeting came there themselves voluntarily
for similar reasons to your own.

Bonne chance,
Dan

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:DKPkf.14615$PH6.11342@fe13.lga...
> dan mcgown wrote:
>
>
> I now have a coach...
>
> More to come.

John Royer

2005-12-06, 12:50 am

How's this for embarassment?
I went into a treatment centre (21 day) abstinence based. First night at
centre we board a school bus which wiskes us off to an AA meeting. I am
sitting down, completely lost, never been to an AA meeting before either.
A man sits down on my right and then one on my left. I look to my left to
say hello and who should it be but my wife's ex husband? I look to my right
and who should that be but my wifes ex father in law! I ended up holding
both their hands saying the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting. (true
story, I swear on my sobriety)
Recently my wife and I attended her ex father in laws 45 medallion.
I have seen many people I know at AA meetings. You need to get over this
supposed stigma. If you don't, your wife of 34 years may very well die. What
will your "embarassment" be worth then?

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t5Gkf.10516$zm1.5681@fe16.lga...
> As for 'embarrassment', it wasn't mine that stopped me - I was concerned
> about the feelings of the woman I recognized. I need to do something, and
> now. I'll be at another location, across town, this afternoon.
>
> As for the talk with my wife, the only advice I've gotten came from a
> distant old employee who went through the same thing with a previous
> husband decades ago. She said something about having guidance providing a
> good idea of what I'm going to say, suggest, do, recommend, ask, etc.
> before first opening my mouth.
>
> Thanks.

Struggling

2005-12-06, 12:50 am

John Royer wrote:
> How's this for embarassment?
<snip>
> I have seen many people I know at AA meetings. You need to get over this
> supposed stigma. If you don't, your wife of 34 years may very well die. What
> will your "embarassment" be worth then?
>

[vbcol=seagreen]

Thanks for your comments, but please note my previous response above. It
wasn't MY embarrassment that stopped me, but that of the woman I'd seen.

I've been to my first meeting, have a coach, received some incredibly
on-point advice from people in whose footsteps I plan to walk, and have
a new confidence. This is NOT as bad as I'd feared.

Not struggling alone...

stuart

2005-12-06, 12:50 am

Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_q5lf.25071$Me6.13801@fe17.lga...
> John Royer wrote:
> <snip>
What[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for your comments, but please note my previous response above. It
> wasn't MY embarrassment that stopped me, but that of the woman I'd seen.
>
> I've been to my first meeting, have a coach, received some incredibly
> on-point advice from people in whose footsteps I plan to walk, and have
> a new confidence. This is NOT as bad as I'd feared.
>
> Not struggling alone...

That's great. At least you got in the side door.
Let me ask you tho'. Was this lady's embarrassment actually more important
than your wife's life? How did you even know she actually was embarrassed?

Keep coming back. Sounds like you need a spine there hubby...

Struggling

2005-12-06, 12:50 am

stuart wrote:
> Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_q5lf.25071$Me6.13801@fe17.lga...
>
>
> What
>
>
>
> That's great. At least you got in the side door.
> Let me ask you tho'. Was this lady's embarrassment actually more important
> than your wife's life? How did you even know she actually was embarrassed?
>
> Keep coming back. Sounds like you need a spine there hubby...
>
>
Perhaps. Or maybe I'm trying to keep too many people comfortable -
including myself - in a situation that simply has no comfort in it.

Sheenah

2005-12-06, 10:50 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_q5lf.25071$Me6.13801@fe17.lga...

concerned[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> Thanks for your comments, but please note my previous response above.
It
> wasn't MY embarrassment that stopped me, but that of the woman I'd
seen.

HOw do you know she was embarrassed ? It is so easy for us to imagine
how another person feels and what we iimagine may be far from the truth.

Look inside yourself. How did you feel when you got to that meeting ?
Were you scared ? Were you embarrassed ? Did you have feelings that
your could have used as an excuse to "chicken out" ? I remember the day
I decided to go to my first AA meeting. I was excited about going and
so was ready to leave home an hour or so before it as time to leave.
Hoever hile driving to the meeting, I began to , Oever, dWhen hen I ent
ot moy "Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_q5lf.25071$Me6.13801@fe17.lga...

concerned[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> Thanks for your comments, but please note my previous response above.
It
> wasn't MY embarrassment that stopped me, but that of the woman I'd
seen.

I have a question ? How do you know she was embarrassed ? I believe
that it is easy for someone to imagine how another person feels and that
iimagining may be far from the truth.

I suggest you look inside yourself for the anser to this questions: "
How did you feel when you got to that meeting ? Were you scared ? Were
you embarrassed ? Did you have other feelings that your could have
used as an excuse/reason to "chicken out" ?

I remember the day I decided to go to my first AA meeting. First thing,
I was excited about going. Therefore I was ready to leave home an hour
or so before it as time to leave. Hoever hile driving to the meeting,
I began to get anxious. My breathing became more rapid, I started
shaking and I began to desire to something that I thought ould be a more
pleasurable-for-me experience. eg going for coffee, going home, going
shopping, going for a walk, going to the pub. After parking my car
some distance from the meeting place, I could not immediately get out of
it because of shaking ith fear

In AA e are taught that our recovery depends in part upon our being
honest ith ourselves about ourselves. hen I try to live this ay, I
become more aare of hen I am looking to find in external factors reasons
for avoidinig situations.

Sheenah

PS. The missing letter in the above is due to my computer playing up.

Robert McGregor

2005-12-06, 10:50 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:io9lf.15957$8o6.4712@fe15.lga...
> stuart wrote:
> Perhaps. Or maybe I'm trying to keep too many people comfortable -
> including myself - in a situation that simply has no comfort in it.

FWIW, seems to me that congratulations are in order. With fortuitous
speed only possible with commendable open mindedness, you have
already established your optimal starting point on a journey through
possibly desolate, confusing, and destabilising adversity.

Or, if you like me talken me local lingo better (with a little bit of
H.O.W*. stolen from the smarmers.) Fair dinkum mate, you're a bloody
bottler the way you're facing unknown, complex and possibly really
bad shit.

You've already shown enough honesty, open mindedness, and willingness
to recognise a little bit of good luck when you see it, so I reckon
you've grabbed that new learning curve well and truly by the balls.

*H.O.W. = Honesty, Open Mindedness, and Willingness

Bob

rosie read n' post

2005-12-06, 10:51 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_q5lf.25071>
> I've been to my first meeting, have a coach, received some incredibly
> on-point advice from people in whose footsteps I plan to walk, and
> have a new confidence. This is NOT as bad as I'd feared.
>
> Not struggling alone...

no, you are not..............and never have to be "alone" again.
please stay in touch and keep us posted!

stuart

2005-12-06, 10:51 am

Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:io9lf.15957$8o6.4712@fe15.lga...
> stuart wrote:
this[vbcol=seagreen]
concerned[vbcol=seagreen]
important[vbcol=seagreen]
embarrassed?[vbcol=seagreen]
> Perhaps. Or maybe I'm trying to keep too many people comfortable -
> including myself - in a situation that simply has no comfort in it.

Precisely. One very common trait among spouses of alcoholics is codependence
and enabling. That;is why I was picking on you. You need to park your ego
for now and be someone you haven't been probably in quite awhile. And I
don't mean being nasty or looking for conflict...

stuart

2005-12-06, 10:51 am

Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:43958b5e_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:io9lf.15957$8o6.4712@fe15.lga...
>
> FWIW, seems to me that congratulations are in order. With fortuitous
> speed only possible with commendable open mindedness, you have
> already established your optimal starting point on a journey through
> possibly desolate, confusing, and destabilising adversity.
>
> Or, if you like me talken me local lingo better (with a little bit of
> H.O.W*. stolen from the smarmers.) Fair dinkum mate, you're a bloody
> bottler the way you're facing unknown, complex and possibly really
> bad shit.
>
> You've already shown enough honesty, open mindedness, and willingness
> to recognise a little bit of good luck when you see it, so I reckon
> you've grabbed that new learning curve well and truly by the balls.
>
> *H.O.W. = Honesty, Open Mindedness, and Willingness
>
> Bob

This bloke's gotta tough row to hoe...He'll do allright..

stuart

2005-12-06, 10:51 am

Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message >
> FWIW, seems to me that congratulations are in order. With fortuitous
> speed only possible with commendable open mindedness, you have
> already established your optimal starting point on a journey through
> possibly desolate, confusing, and destabilising adversity.
>
> Or, if you like me talken me local lingo better (with a little bit of
> H.O.W*. stolen from the smarmers.) Fair dinkum mate, you're a bloody
> bottler the way you're facing unknown, complex and possibly really
> bad shit.
>
> You've already shown enough honesty, open mindedness, and willingness
> to recognise a little bit of good luck when you see it, so I reckon
> you've grabbed that new learning curve well and truly by the balls.
>
> *H.O.W. = Honesty, Open Mindedness, and Willingness
>
> Bob

You know something Bob. You are a very intelligent and obviously highly
educated man. You do have a varied and colorful vocabulary at your disposal
that most folks do not have.
Someone, somewhere will, no doubt, accuse you of arrogance when you openly
paraphrase you erudite style into a more colloquial lingo for the express
purpose of attaching meaning to your wordsmithing that matches the
understanding of the simpleton you have been presented to communicate with.
Openly switching intellectual writing style (with announcement I might add)
might give the author a warm fuzzy inside with respect to his own perceived
intellectual superiority. However, someone, somewhere just might raise up
his/her fisticuffs one day.
Don't be too surprised.
Just trying to be a friend, there Bob.
May I make a suggestion, as per Tommy. Good usage of the English vocabulary
in writing is intended to make one's ideas clear, not necessarily muddy or
incomprehensible. It is always good form to match the style you are replying
to, and save the more flowery prose for those who enjoy it...
Just a suggestion, Bob

Been there, done that Stu

Robert McGregor

2005-12-10, 11:05 am

"stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:0Vhlf.137405$y_1.116101@edtnps89...
>
> Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in
> message >
>
> You know something Bob. You are a very intelligent and obviously
> highly
> educated man.

Unfortunately, that opinion is possibly true, relative to you;
while all too easily arguable, relative to humanity.

Conversely, my opinion of you is that, doctorate or not, you're
demonstrably a self-aggrandising would be if you could be power
tripper, to whom both elementary perception, and honesty,
are strangers you haven't met yet at your AA meetings.

>You do have a varied and colorful vocabulary at your disposal
> that most folks do not have.
> Someone, somewhere will, no doubt, accuse you of arrogance when you
> openly
> paraphrase you erudite style into a more colloquial lingo for the
> express
> purpose of attaching meaning to your wordsmithing that matches the
> understanding of the simpleton you have been presented to
> communicate with.

Even without your crass contextual association of "struggling" with
"the simpleton you have been presented to communicate with"
and despite your egotistical projections. Unawareness as revealed by
"struggling" is more than likely not ignorant ego, rather mere
application of the sanity of admitting to not knowing. That's
reality your head's probably way too far up your arse for you to
*ever* comprehend.

> Openly switching intellectual writing style (with announcement I
> might add)
> might give the author a warm fuzzy inside with respect to his own
> perceived
> intellectual superiority. However, someone, somewhere just might
> raise up
> his/her fisticuffs one day.
> Don't be too surprised.
> Just trying to be a friend, there Bob.

With a friend such as you, who would need enemies?

Stuart, you're not just garden variety compost, you're a dead cunt.
Arguably, that just goes to show that your boasted AA pooftas group
is where you're in the right place. Equally arguable, it's Dan McGown
who's in the wrong place at AA;-)

Pertaining to your imbecilic threats, to Ken Ragge about soccer fans,
and your rhetoric here about "fisticuffs" which, if genuine concern
was backed with a minimum of intelligence, would have been emailed
privately.

Sonny, although having long survived at least three armed attempts
on my life, two armed "fisticuffs" are part of my history too.
Admittedly, advancing age inevitably brings it's associated
pugilistic deterioration.

However, my experience in street fighting is such that it was defeat
I invariably survived with a modicum of equanimity, while more than
once, remorse has been my legacy of victory. If this special message
goes over the heads of phoneys such as you, and shit infantile enough
to be stirred by you, so be it.

> May I make a suggestion, as per Tommy. Good usage of the English
> vocabulary
> in writing is intended to make one's ideas clear, not necessarily
> muddy or
> incomprehensible. It is always good form to match the style you are
> replying
> to, and save the more flowery prose for those who enjoy it...
> Just a suggestion, Bob
>
> Been there, done that Stu
>

For those to whom my formal vocabulary and grammar is unfamiliar, any
who want to understand can easily check a dictionary, even online
http://dictionary.reference.com/ or simply ask me. Generally though,
I believe folk apt to react either emotively or intelligently will do
their own thing regardless of the style of writing.

Pertaining to me, I've enough arrogance of my own, thank you very
much, merely none at all where you persist in projecting it to be.
As far as my choice of vocabulary, grammar, and style goes, if I'm
satisfied I click send and it goes.

Actually, my reply to "struggling" was written with time consuming
meticulous care necessary to convey my exact sentiments about
what could ultimately prove to be either a single hiccup, multiple
tragedy, or anything in between. When satisfied I had succeeded at
including appropriate content in minimal bandwidth, then read it
through, I endured an overdose of inner mirth at my apparent outer
pomposity. Thus the lingo.

Conversely, when I read your presumptive responses to "struggling" I
moved on, with merely a twinge of contempt.

That's all exercising something probably incomprehensible to power
trippers such as yourselves, my freedom inherent in needing to scam
nothing at all, neither material, metaphorical, nor spiritual.

Stuart, intolerant of your persistent but puerile projections, I
guess any further correspondence from me will only be about you,
never to you.

stuart

2005-12-10, 11:05 am

Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:4396d30e_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:0Vhlf.137405$y_1.116101@edtnps89...
>
> Unfortunately, that opinion is possibly true, relative to you;
> while all too easily arguable, relative to humanity.
>
> Conversely, my opinion of you is that, doctorate or not, you're
> demonstrably a self-aggrandising would be if you could be power
> tripper, to whom both elementary perception, and honesty,
> are strangers you haven't met yet at your AA meetings.
>
>
> Even without your crass contextual association of "struggling" with
> "the simpleton you have been presented to communicate with"
> and despite your egotistical projections. Unawareness as revealed by
> "struggling" is more than likely not ignorant ego, rather mere
> application of the sanity of admitting to not knowing. That's
> reality your head's probably way too far up your arse for you to
> *ever* comprehend.
>
>
> With a friend such as you, who would need enemies?
>
> Stuart, you're not just garden variety compost, you're a dead cunt.
> Arguably, that just goes to show that your boasted AA pooftas group
> is where you're in the right place. Equally arguable, it's Dan McGown
> who's in the wrong place at AA;-)
>
> Pertaining to your imbecilic threats, to Ken Ragge about soccer fans,
> and your rhetoric here about "fisticuffs" which, if genuine concern
> was backed with a minimum of intelligence, would have been emailed
> privately.
>
> Sonny, although having long survived at least three armed attempts
> on my life, two armed "fisticuffs" are part of my history too.
> Admittedly, advancing age inevitably brings it's associated
> pugilistic deterioration.
>
> However, my experience in street fighting is such that it was defeat
> I invariably survived with a modicum of equanimity, while more than
> once, remorse has been my legacy of victory. If this special message
> goes over the heads of phoneys such as you, and shit infantile enough
> to be stirred by you, so be it.
>
>
> For those to whom my formal vocabulary and grammar is unfamiliar, any
> who want to understand can easily check a dictionary, even online
> http://dictionary.reference.com/ or simply ask me. Generally though,
> I believe folk apt to react either emotively or intelligently will do
> their own thing regardless of the style of writing.
>
> Pertaining to me, I've enough arrogance of my own, thank you very
> much, merely none at all where you persist in projecting it to be.
> As far as my choice of vocabulary, grammar, and style goes, if I'm
> satisfied I click send and it goes.
>
> Actually, my reply to "struggling" was written with time consuming
> meticulous care necessary to convey my exact sentiments about
> what could ultimately prove to be either a single hiccup, multiple
> tragedy, or anything in between. When satisfied I had succeeded at
> including appropriate content in minimal bandwidth, then read it
> through, I endured an overdose of inner mirth at my apparent outer
> pomposity. Thus the lingo.
>
> Conversely, when I read your presumptive responses to "struggling" I
> moved on, with merely a twinge of contempt.
>
> That's all exercising something probably incomprehensible to power
> trippers such as yourselves, my freedom inherent in needing to scam
> nothing at all, neither material, metaphorical, nor spiritual.
>
> Stuart, intolerant of your persistent but puerile projections, I
> guess any further correspondence from me will only be about you,
> never to you.

Know what I think, Bob? I think you are projecting your worse fears
regarding yourself on someone you have never met face to face.

Struggling

2005-12-10, 11:05 am

Hey! I've got no dog in THAT fight...

*************************************
As for my own problem, I now have a sponsor (sheesh! no opinion, no
advice, no instructions, no script...) and feel sorta kinda comforted
listening to experiences of others. That's tutorial and maybe that's the
way it's supposed to work.

But I'm the only male in the group of ~6 (varies) and somehow there's a
sexual tension/competition in the room. I'm a fit near-70, and trust me
- I didn't consciously trigger it. Is this common?

David M

2005-12-10, 11:05 am

Struggling wrote:

> But I'm the only male in the group of ~6 (varies) and somehow
> there's a sexual tension/competition in the room. I'm a fit
> near-70, and trust me - I didn't consciously trigger it. Is this
> common?

As old as evolution.

stuart

2005-12-10, 11:05 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:VkHlf.16888$8o6.15244@fe15.lga...
> Hey! I've got no dog in THAT fight...
>
> *************************************
> As for my own problem, I now have a sponsor (sheesh! no opinion, no
> advice, no instructions, no script...) and feel sorta kinda comforted
> listening to experiences of others. That's tutorial and maybe that's the
> way it's supposed to work.
>
> But I'm the only male in the group of ~6 (varies) and somehow there's a
> sexual tension/competition in the room. I'm a fit near-70, and trust me -
> I didn't consciously trigger it. Is this common?

I sincerely hope you find the experience and help you need. I am also
certain, by the sound of things that you too have a great deal to offer
others. My prayers are with you and especially your wife. It must be very
difficult sitting on the sidelines watching this happen.
I'm almost in tears as I type this, cause I had a spouse who went thru' the
same heartache with me.
Please forgive the seemingly harsh words and flaming you see in here.

stuart from edmonton

Struggling

2005-12-10, 11:06 am

stuart wrote:

> Please forgive the seemingly harsh words and flaming you see in here.

I sense nothing harsh, no flames, just support of various kinds - for
which I'm grateful. In fact, I'm willing to admit that my entrance to
that church was probably accelerated by the comments here... Despite
anonymity, I didn't want to report more rationalization.

Thanks.

dan mcgown

2005-12-10, 11:06 am

How is it going at the moment? You mentioned in another post that it didn't
appear to be as bad as you had feared. I hope that that remains the case.

Please stay in touch.

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a03mf.26397$PH6.15525@fe13.lga...
> stuart wrote:
>
>
>
> I sense nothing harsh, no flames, just support of various kinds - for
> which I'm grateful. In fact, I'm willing to admit that my entrance to that
> church was probably accelerated by the comments here... Despite anonymity,
> I didn't want to report more rationalization.
>
> Thanks.

Struggling

2005-12-12, 12:50 pm

Alanon's pace and direction are disappointing, but maybe it's a matter
of expectations. Somehow I hoped for a 'prescription', with a coach to
ensure that I do it properly. What's been proposed so far is
'acceptance', 'support is here', 'it's a disease and not your fault',
'keep coming back'. There are incredibly sorrowful stories and soaked
Kleenex, but no direct help.

I want help for my wife and do NOT want to become an expert in living
with the situation. Even today, she's unaware that I know what's going
on. She's seriously abusing alcohol, but probably hasn't reached the
clinical definition of alcoholism. I want to intervene, but properly and
safely [and quickly] and don't know how. She WILL resist change/support
and MAY resist discussion.

Is there another resource?

David M

2005-12-12, 12:50 pm

Struggling wrote:

> Alanon's pace and direction are disappointing, but maybe it's
> a matter of expectations. Somehow I hoped for a
> 'prescription', with a coach to ensure that I do it properly.
> What's been proposed so far is 'acceptance', 'support is
> here', 'it's a disease and not your fault', 'keep coming back'.
> There are incredibly sorrowful stories and soaked Kleenex,
> but no direct help.

> I want help for my wife and do NOT want to become an
> expert in living with the situation. Even today, she's unaware
> that I know what's going on. She's seriously abusing alcohol,
> but probably hasn't reached the clinical definition of
> alcoholism. I want to intervene, but properly and safely [and
> quickly] and don't know how. She WILL resist change/support
> and MAY resist discussion.

> Is there another resource?

Alanon is telling you that you can absolutely change yourself, but
you absolutely can't change your wife. You may (or may not) be able
to encourage her, try to motivate her, but only she can change her.
There is no magic set of words to make it all go away.

If you think you need more than Alanon, type "alcohol intervention"
into Google. You'll get more than 22,000,000 hits, many from people
and organizations who will be willing to help and/or coach you
professionally. None of them can guarantee results. You pays your
money and you takes your chances.

Good luck.

Robert McGregor

2005-12-12, 5:51 pm

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZWinf.3357$RW7.326@fe14.lga...
> Alanon's pace and direction are disappointing, but maybe it's a
> matter of expectations. Somehow I hoped for a 'prescription', with
> a coach to ensure that I do it properly. What's been proposed so
> far is 'acceptance', 'support is here', 'it's a disease and not
> your fault', 'keep coming back'. There are incredibly sorrowful
> stories and soaked Kleenex, but no direct help.
>
> I want help for my wife and do NOT want to become an expert in
> living with the situation. Even today, she's unaware that I know
> what's going on. She's seriously abusing alcohol, but probably
> hasn't reached the clinical definition of alcoholism. I want to
> intervene, but properly and safely [and quickly] and don't know
> how. She WILL resist change/support and MAY resist discussion.
>
> Is there another resource?

There are countless resources.

You were seeking certainty that I was certain did not exist. The one
certainty I had, that you did not seem to have, was that my
suggesting Al-Anon would expose you to by far the greatest single
collective of experience pertinent to your situation.

So far, the sum of that collective experience seems to concur with my
view that *you* best start learning to live with uncertainty. I
expect you will agree it was in your best interests that opinion came
from Al-Anon, not me.

FWIW, I believe that if your wife is indeed a real alcoholic, the
odds of her successful recovery are about 2% for, and 98% against.
I'm sure you will be alternately frightened and comforted by all
sorts of statistics, as I'm equally sure no statistics, including
mine, are benchmarked on the personal circumstances in which you
and your wife are today.

The Al-Anon link I gave you contained references to online forums
where you can expand your knowledge base far beyond the limits of
geographical confinement. I suggest as new possibilities arise, you
make maximum use of those Al-Anon forums; where you may well find
personal experience of any philosophy or organisation you encounter
in your search for solutions.

FWIW again, I'm aware of no solution superior to the 12 steps of AA
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_58.htm that were associated with my own
recovery from the hopeless desolation of alcoholism over a decade
ago.

I must add that is as distinct from the AA organisations, and
the sponsors often foisted on people at AA and in associated
institutions.

Should your wife start to communicate in this forum, I'll be more
than happy to further explain pertinent reasons for that opinion
openly, (where others can criticise, constructively or otherwise to
their hearts content) if that's what she wants and I'm still hanging
around this place.

Best wishes to you and your wife,

Bob

Struggling

2005-12-22, 5:51 pm

I'm unhappy with the Alanon meetings. At first, it looked like a sponsor
or coach would guide me through a productive and meaningful discussion
with my wife, leading to help and change. What's happened is time spent
reading chapters from books, listening to horror stories, and
sympathizing with exhausted and battered people. I do not want to learn
how to accept! Alanon has 1000 ways to say "Learn to live with it - and
here's the Kleenex".

That's not what I went for, so I'm quitting. I am not demeaning Alanon.
For others there, it's the ONLY place they can share their situation and
get support for their misery and fears. I empathize but don't share,
because I don't think my situation is there (yet) and want to intervene.

My physician friends say my wife is abusing alcohol but is probably not
an alcoholic - but at a pint a day and growing, and with depression, and
with increasing isolation from others, there's no other end in sight.

What about Zyban (Welbutrin)? Has anyone tried this approach? Other
psychoactive chemistry? Any other route or solution?

My wife still does not know that I know the quantity she's drinking,
though she's completely open about the drinking itself and is not
secretive at all.

Thanks.

Dan McGown

2005-12-22, 5:51 pm

Friend,
Sooner or later you're going to have to turn the cards face up on the
table. Do it with love, but do it.
I'm sorry that alanon didn't help but I guess that their principal
activity is coping with intractable alcoholics. That kind of points them
away from the more optimistic approaches.
For what it's worth, my reaction was the same as your doctor friend.
She's likely abusing because something else is bothering her -- but if she
keeps it up and it becomes habitual -- well, there's another level of hell.
Best to confront it before it gets there.
Good luck,
Dan
"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:acDqf.629$yj4.343@fe13.lga...
> I'm unhappy with the Alanon meetings. At first, it looked like a sponsor
> or coach would guide me through a productive and meaningful discussion
> with my wife, leading to help and change. What's happened is time spent
> reading chapters from books, listening to horror stories, and sympathizing
> with exhausted and battered people. I do not want to learn how to accept!
> Alanon has 1000 ways to say "Learn to live with it - and here's the
> Kleenex".
>
> That's not what I went for, so I'm quitting. I am not demeaning Alanon.
> For others there, it's the ONLY place they can share their situation and
> get support for their misery and fears. I empathize but don't share,
> because I don't think my situation is there (yet) and want to intervene.
>
> My physician friends say my wife is abusing alcohol but is probably not an
> alcoholic - but at a pint a day and growing, and with depression, and with
> increasing isolation from others, there's no other end in sight.
>
> What about Zyban (Welbutrin)? Has anyone tried this approach? Other
> psychoactive chemistry? Any other route or solution?
>
> My wife still does not know that I know the quantity she's drinking,
> though she's completely open about the drinking itself and is not
> secretive at all.
>
> Thanks.

Dudley Do Rite

2005-12-23, 12:51 am

AlAnon didn't sit well with my wife either. For many of the same reasons
you wrote it seems.

You've done just about everything you can and now it's time to confront her.
You love her, you need to help her. Tell her what you know (e.g. the volume
of consumption) and what you've learned from all your objective sources
(i.e. she's drinking to escape facing something with a clear head).

Be strong. For her sake, but for yourself too. You need to do this for
yourself.

Good luck - steve

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:acDqf.629$yj4.343@fe13.lga...
> I'm unhappy with the Alanon meetings. At first, it looked like a sponsor
> or coach would guide me through a productive and meaningful discussion
> with my wife, leading to help and change. What's happened is time spent
> reading chapters from books, listening to horror stories, and sympathizing
> with exhausted and battered people. I do not want to learn how to accept!
> Alanon has 1000 ways to say "Learn to live with it - and here's the
> Kleenex".
>
> That's not what I went for, so I'm quitting. I am not demeaning Alanon.
> For others there, it's the ONLY place they can share their situation and
> get support for their misery and fears. I empathize but don't share,
> because I don't think my situation is there (yet) and want to intervene.
>
> My physician friends say my wife is abusing alcohol but is probably not an
> alcoholic - but at a pint a day and growing, and with depression, and with
> increasing isolation from others, there's no other end in sight.
>
> What about Zyban (Welbutrin)? Has anyone tried this approach? Other
> psychoactive chemistry? Any other route or solution?
>
> My wife still does not know that I know the quantity she's drinking,
> though she's completely open about the drinking itself and is not
> secretive at all.
>
> Thanks.

Still Another Subliminal Message from Board Tested

2005-12-23, 12:51 am

I haven't chimed in yet on this thread, so I thought
now was a good time to share a little.

It took me a couple months of AA,
Couple times of failures of really quitting
and actually my drinking then got worse.
It took a trip to my doctor trying to explain (lie) about why
my liver tests were so bad, and
eventually profession rehab
to get me fixed. Yaa .. Yaa.
The 12 step thing .. but you know
I was failing AA part pretty well by then too
and I was ready, as were my employer and
my wife. The thought of driving into on coming
18 wheeler seemed Ok too some mornings, but I chicken out
on that solution when it dawned on me I would ruin
someone else's life then too. Moment of clarity of an alcoholic ?

I take it your ready to confront her ?
The likely next step is she will deny it.
That is too be expected to some degree.

Then a couple attempts of stopping, changing, or reducing
drinking. That is the test. Trying AA. Stopping going to AA,
drunking gets worse. That is is to be expected too. Hopefully
Alanon prepared you for some of this ?

I was placed on anti-depressants before and after rehab. The before
stage
didn't help ... and I got more depressed because neither
the drinking or drugs seemed to improve me !
The after stage was better.. I went through allot of mental stress
that
I think were helped by them.

If you have chemical dependency insurance,
your be shocked to know that a 5 week stay is
covered ... generally just a referal from a dr. or other
licensed health care and even if not, it's cheaper than
a funeral or a divorce.

Good luck.

stuart

2005-12-23, 12:51 am

Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:acDqf.629$yj4.343@fe13.lga...
> I'm unhappy with the Alanon meetings. At first, it looked like a sponsor
> or coach would guide me through a productive and meaningful discussion
> with my wife, leading to help and change. What's happened is time spent
> reading chapters from books, listening to horror stories, and
> sympathizing with exhausted and battered people. I do not want to learn
> how to accept! Alanon has 1000 ways to say "Learn to live with it - and
> here's the Kleenex".
>
> That's not what I went for, so I'm quitting. I am not demeaning Alanon.
> For others there, it's the ONLY place they can share their situation and
> get support for their misery and fears. I empathize but don't share,
> because I don't think my situation is there (yet) and want to intervene.
>
> My physician friends say my wife is abusing alcohol but is probably not
> an alcoholic - but at a pint a day and growing, and with depression, and
> with increasing isolation from others, there's no other end in sight.
>
> What about Zyban (Welbutrin)? Has anyone tried this approach? Other
> psychoactive chemistry? Any other route or solution?
>
> My wife still does not know that I know the quantity she's drinking,
> though she's completely open about the drinking itself and is not
> secretive at all.
>
> Thanks.

Tell you what worked for a friend of mine whose husband was drinking way too
much. She wrote him a letter stating that if he didn't stop drinking, she
would be gone. Period. It worked and they are spending their first sober
Christmas together.

Still Another Subliminal Message from Board Tested

2005-12-23, 5:51 pm

Great to hear that.

stuart

2005-12-23, 5:51 pm

"Still Another Subliminal Message from Board Tested Approved AA Cultist
Member" <BeenThereGotAMug@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135373255.031963.116750@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Great to hear that.

hear what?

David M

2005-12-23, 5:51 pm

stuart wrote:
> Still Another wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
> hear what?

Pay attention! ;-)

Tim

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

You need to abandon alanon, and also abandon this newsgroup. Then you
need to immediately hire a certified interventionist, and be done with
it. Follow this advise and all the head games with your wife, in
addition to your own self loathing will be over!

Peace,
Tim

Struggling

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

Tim wrote:
> You need to abandon alanon, and also abandon this newsgroup. Then you
> need to immediately hire a certified interventionist, and be done with
> it. Follow this advise and all the head games with your wife, in
> addition to your own self loathing will be over!
>
> Peace,
> Tim
>

I hope I'm not playing "head games", but trying to figure out what to
do. My wife and I have a terrific 34y relationship - she just drinks too
much and that's something I can't share with her. She doesn't drive
drunk, doesn't fall down, there's no fighting, no loss of control. Hell,
she drinks at midnight and wakes up sober - without a hangover. If I
hadn't noticed the bottles I would never know about the quantity.

And there's no "self loathing" here. I'm a fairly prideful and
reasonably accomplished person, and don't loathe myself just because I
don't know what to do to help my wife. I surely contributed to the
underlying cause, and haven't (yet) figured out how. But "loathing"?

But perhaps you got one thing right ===> a pointer to a "certified
interventionist". That's a term I haven't heard before. How do I pick
one? Where are they?

Thanks.

DaveB

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:42:25 -0800, Struggling
<strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote:

>Tim wrote:
>
>I hope I'm not playing "head games", but trying to figure out what to
>do. My wife and I have a terrific 34y relationship - she just drinks too
>much and that's something I can't share with her. She doesn't drive
>drunk, doesn't fall down, there's no fighting, no loss of control. Hell,
>she drinks at midnight and wakes up sober - without a hangover. If I
>hadn't noticed the bottles I would never know about the quantity.
>
>And there's no "self loathing" here. I'm a fairly prideful and
>reasonably accomplished person, and don't loathe myself just because I
>don't know what to do to help my wife. I surely contributed to the
>underlying cause, and haven't (yet) figured out how. But "loathing"?
>
>But perhaps you got one thing right ===> a pointer to a "certified
>interventionist". That's a term I haven't heard before. How do I pick
>one? Where are they?
>
>Thanks.

Try the yellow pages.

Regards

Daveb

Tim

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

Simply type "interventionists" into your computer's search engine, and
follow the links. Choose one, any one, contact one, and ask any one for
a referral to one that's somewhere close to home. Watchout for amateur
frauds! Also, Any recocery center can also probably direct you to an
inteventionist..So get busy with this plan, follow thru with all the
direction you're given, while doing your internet research, and don't
worry about this group. All we have to offer here is words. You need a
person who will provide remedial action and who is experienced in this
field. I'm not here to talk about it. I only want you to be working on
your wife's solution, without delay, or immediate further discussion
with the group. Good Luck!!

Peace,
Tim

dan mcgown

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

Start at http://www.ambrd.org/

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_P0rf.1278$SV4.123@fe14.lga...
> Tim wrote:
>
> I hope I'm not playing "head games", but trying to figure out what to do.
> My wife and I have a terrific 34y relationship - she just drinks too much
> and that's something I can't share with her. She doesn't drive drunk,
> doesn't fall down, there's no fighting, no loss of control. Hell, she
> drinks at midnight and wakes up sober - without a hangover. If I hadn't
> noticed the bottles I would never know about the quantity.
>
> And there's no "self loathing" here. I'm a fairly prideful and reasonably
> accomplished person, and don't loathe myself just because I don't know
> what to do to help my wife. I surely contributed to the underlying cause,
> and haven't (yet) figured out how. But "loathing"?
>
> But perhaps you got one thing right ===> a pointer to a "certified
> interventionist". That's a term I haven't heard before. How do I pick one?
> Where are they?
>
> Thanks.

DaveB

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

On Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:36:06 -0800, TimFromAnaheim@webtv.net (Tim)
wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>Simply type "interventionists" into your computer's search engine, and
>follow the links. Choose one, any one, contact one, and ask any one for
>a referral to one that's somewhere close to home. Watchout for amateur
>frauds! Also, Any recocery center can also probably direct you to an
>inteventionist..So get busy with this plan, follow thru with all the
>direction you're given, while doing your internet research, and don't
>worry about this group. All we have to offer here is words. You need a
>person who will provide remedial action and who is experienced in this
>field. I'm not here to talk about it. I only want you to be working on
>your wife's solution, without delay, or immediate further discussion
>with the group. Good Luck!!
>
>Peace,
>Tim
>
> I only want you to be working on

I suppose your some sort of "Expert" ? clue us all in if you dont
mind.

Regards
Daveb

Robert McGregor

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

"Struggling" <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_P0rf.1278$SV4.123@fe14.lga...

>
> I hope I'm not playing "head games", but trying to figure out what to
> do. My wife and I have a terrific 34y relationship - she just drinks too
> much and that's something I can't share with her. She doesn't drive
> drunk, doesn't fall down, there's no fighting, no loss of control. Hell,
> she drinks at midnight and wakes up sober - without a hangover. If I
> hadn't noticed the bottles I would never know about the quantity.
>

Given the terrific relationship you have been demonstrating, for all you
know, the bottles are merely symbols that her lover leaves behind.

Bob

Still Another Subliminal Message from Board Tested

2005-12-24, 12:51 am

Strugging,

Ok. Stop the bull shitting. If you known your wife for 34 years,
and have *terrific* relationship, you must completely void
of either a back bone or vocal cords.

It seems you have a terrible communication
problem if you can't say up front to her :

"Honey .. You drink too much, I've been
watching the evidence every time I take the trash out"
I've gone behind your back and my doctor, your friends,
a bunch of strangers I've met on usenet groups and
these freaky meetings think we should talk about it.
Why ? Please explain to me why you have been
drinking more than you use too ? What is bothering you ? "

Being prideful is a great enabler trait too.

You've been asking a complete set of strangers
what to do ... and now your wiggling out of that
to hire a complete unknown *professional* to ask
what your afraid to.

Am I hitting any buttons ?

Send me a check for $500 please.
And your phone number and I ask her.

I'd wait until after Christmas and get it over with
before New Years. Rehabs fill up quickly in January,
as do AA meetings so arrive early.

Seasons Greetings.
Now get of the pot.

Struggling

2005-12-24, 10:50 am

I wanted a guide in the first place, and Alanon seemed like a detour or
not the right path for me in this situation -- hopefully a professional
is. Following that suggestion tonight I found someone local with
reasonable credentials, sent an email, and got a callback 30 minutes
later. We spoke this evening for 30 minutes and will meet tomorrow.

She said that she usually gets involved only after a relationship is
already badly damaged by well-meaning but wrong attempts at
intervention, and thought it had been a good idea to find a road map
before proceeding.

Who could have guessed that there's such a profession as
'interventionist'? Wish I'd done this sooner. I hope this works out and
appreciate the help.

Still Another Subliminal Message from Board Tested

2005-12-24, 10:50 am

Me sees a prideful control freak.
Get someone on your side first,
then attack having them say what you won't.
Then afterwards you can stand behind and
say "The 'interventionist' sez ..."

Good Luck regardless of your unknown intentions.

Tim

2005-12-24, 10:50 am

Daveb wrote: I suppose your some kind of "Expert" ? clue us all in if
you don't mind.

No expert at all, Dave, pretended or othewise. I'm merely a 16 year
student of recovery from alcohol, drugs, and also codependency.
Personally I've been a recovering poly addict of some 16 years, who's
drug of choice happened to be alcohol.

My only expertice with the profession of "interventionist" comes from my
regularly viewing the weekly reality docu-drama that's aptly named
"Intervention" that airs on the A&E channel each Sunday night. If you're
that curious, then do a netsearch and you'll begin to understand the
weekly docu-drama. I personally wish everyone associated with "recovery"
would or could give this program a looksee at least once. And as a
disclaimer, I have absolutely nothing to do with the shows production,
distribution, or anything else, other than being an keenly interested
viewer whenever the show is aired.

Thats all for now: I just wanted to see this guy get off his duff real
soon, and take real meaningful action to get his wife the help she
needs.

Peace,
Tim

DaveB

2005-12-24, 12:50 pm

On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 07:38:25 -0800, TimFromAnaheim@webtv.net (Tim)
wrote:

>Daveb wrote: I suppose your some kind of "Expert" ? clue us all in if
>you don't mind.
>
>No expert at all, Dave, pretended or othewise. I'm merely a 16 year
>student of recovery from alcohol, drugs, and also codependency.
>Personally I've been a recovering poly addict of some 16 years, who's
>drug of choice happened to be alcohol.
>
>My only expertice with the profession of "interventionist" comes from my
>regularly viewing the weekly reality docu-drama that's aptly named
>"Intervention" that airs on the A&E channel each Sunday night. If you're
>that curious, then do a netsearch and you'll begin to understand the
>weekly docu-drama. I personally wish everyone associated with "recovery"
>would or could give this program a looksee at least once. And as a
>disclaimer, I have absolutely nothing to do with the shows production,
>distribution, or anything else, other than being an keenly interested
>viewer whenever the show is aired.
>
>Thats all for now: I just wanted to see this guy get off his duff real
>soon, and take real meaningful action to get his wife the help she
>needs.
>
>Peace,
>Tim
>

"Duff" is the keyword for sure.

Regards
Daveb

Struggling

2005-12-24, 12:50 pm

To Tim, who I believe was the first to mention the term
'interventionist', I'm very grateful.

I just returned from a long breakfast meeting with the person I was
seeking in the first place - an experienced/credible coach. I did and
said what was suggested, there was no blowup or crisis, and within three
minutes my wife agreed to a Tuesday office meeting. My instinctive
approach would surely have been destructive.

We're going to a party this afternoon, and a ball game. She -only-
drinks excessively at home alone, so now till Tuesday is easy.

Thanks to those who responded. Even the bitter sarcasm helped.

E

David M

2005-12-24, 5:51 pm

Struggling wrote:

> To Tim, who I believe was the first to mention the term
> 'interventionist', I'm very grateful.

On December 12, in response to your first message, I posted:

"If you think you need more than Alanon, type 'alcohol intervention'
into Google. You'll get more than 22,000,000 hits, many from people
and organizations who will be willing to help and/or coach you
professionally. None of them can guarantee results. You pays your
money and you takes your chances."

You probably weren't ready then.

Good luck!

stuart

2005-12-24, 5:52 pm

Struggling <strugglingwithit@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:N9grf.20098$yj4.9688@fe13.lga...
> To Tim, who I believe was the first to mention the term
> 'interventionist', I'm very grateful.
>
> I just returned from a long breakfast meeting with the person I was
> seeking in the first place - an experienced/credible coach. I did and
> said what was suggested, there was no blowup or crisis, and within three
> minutes my wife agreed to a Tuesday office meeting. My instinctive
> approach would surely have been destructive.
>
> We're going to a party this afternoon, and a ball game. She -only-
> drinks excessively at home alone, so now till Tuesday is easy.
>
> Thanks to those who responded. Even the bitter sarcasm helped.
>
> E

I think you realize that, by and large, all the responses came from a sense
of caring. Because you care about your wife, you will be useful whatever
method you use. Only you know the situation. I would congratulate you in not
just flying off at the handle here. It sounds like you have given this some
sober thought, some research and I wish you the best of luck in the future.
Eventually, anyone whose drinking is beginning to bother those close to
them, it bothers the drinker too. Sometimes they need a gentle and kind
nudge.

Robert McGregor

2005-12-24, 5:52 pm

"David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:415k21F1d52lqU1@individual.net...
> Struggling wrote:
>
>
> On December 12, in response to your first message, I posted:
>
> "If you think you need more than Alanon, type 'alcohol intervention'
> into Google. You'll get more than 22,000,000 hits, many from people
> and organizations who will be willing to help and/or coach you
> professionally. None of them can guarantee results. You pays your
> money and you takes your chances."
>
> You probably weren't ready then.
>

David M = +2
Tim = +1
Robert M = -1

stuart

2005-12-24, 5:52 pm

Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@knickers.yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:43adc22b_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
>
> "David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:415k21F1d52lqU1@individual.net...
>
>

>
> David M = +2
> Tim = +1
> Robert M = -1

Quit putting yourself down Bob.

>
>