Alcoholism Recovery - Opinions please.

Author

Opinions please.

John Royer

2005-01-18, 10:06 pm

I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which appears to
be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as anonymous as
possible.

Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive members. Of
the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They are also
among the founding members of the group.

In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would attend the
Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group. We say the
Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was taken a
couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding members
brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the other. The
reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt
that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could be
a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time. It
also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with this to leave
our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our attendance has
been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we did not follow the
traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s were not attending.
So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was reinstituted. We had a business
meeting last night and lo and behold the ones who had voted the prayer out
showed up and succeded in passing a "Notice of Intent" to vote on the issue
again next month. O.K. but as soon as the meeting as over they left even
though there was a closed meeting scheduled. They very rarely attend open or
closed meetings any other time. This is becoming divisive especially since
they have also made it known that once they sell their home they'll be
moving on and leaving our group.

On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords
prayer to close their meetings?
Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are from. The
reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One else uses
the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.

Thanks

Dan McGown

2005-01-18, 10:06 pm

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
>I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which appears to
>be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as anonymous as
>possible.
>
> Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive members.
> Of the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They are
> also among the founding members of the group.
>
> In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would attend the
> Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group. We say
> the Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was taken a
> couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding members
> brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the other. The
> reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt
> that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could
> be a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time.
> It also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with this to
> leave our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our
> attendance has been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we
> did not follow the traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s
> were not attending. So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was
> reinstituted. We had a business meeting last night and lo and behold the
> ones who had voted the prayer out showed up and succeded in passing a
> "Notice of Intent" to vote on the issue again next month. O.K. but as soon
> as the meeting as over they left even though there was a closed meeting
> scheduled. They very rarely attend open or closed meetings any other time.
> This is becoming divisive especially since they have also made it known
> that once they sell their home they'll be moving on and leaving our group.
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords
> prayer to close their meetings?
> Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are from. The
> reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One else
> uses the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
>
> Thanks

John, I am from Akron, Ohio, the home of AA, and I go to lots of different
meetings at lots of different types of meeting places in lots of different
socio-economic areas all over town, and I don't remember *ever* being at one
meeting that didn't end with the Lord's Prayer.
Dan

Gail

2005-01-18, 10:06 pm

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
>I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which appears to
>be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as anonymous as
>possible.
>
> Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive members.
> Of the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They are
> also among the founding members of the group.
>
> In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would attend the
> Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group. We say
> the Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was taken a
> couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding members
> brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the other. The
> reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt
> that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could
> be a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time.
> It also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with this to
> leave our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our
> attendance has been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we
> did not follow the traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s
> were not attending. So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was
> reinstituted. We had a business meeting last night and lo and behold the
> ones who had voted the prayer out showed up and succeded in passing a
> "Notice of Intent" to vote on the issue again next month. O.K. but as soon
> as the meeting as over they left even though there was a closed meeting
> scheduled. They very rarely attend open or closed meetings any other time.
> This is becoming divisive especially since they have also made it known
> that once they sell their home they'll be moving on and leaving our group.
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords
> prayer to close their meetings?
> Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are from. The
> reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One else
> uses the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>

Tennessee and all the meetings I have ever attended from East Tennessee to
West Tennessee end with The Lord's Prayer.
Best,
Gail

John Royer

2005-01-18, 10:06 pm

Thanks Dan.

Please to all you other folks.......I could really use your input.

John

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:TMydnfJ2go95VHDcRVn-iA@adelphia.com...
>
> "John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> John, I am from Akron, Ohio, the home of AA, and I go to lots of different
> meetings at lots of different types of meeting places in lots of different
> socio-economic areas all over town, and I don't remember *ever* being at
> one meeting that didn't end with the Lord's Prayer.
> Dan
>

Mias

2005-01-19, 2:06 am

Dear John
I would say that if it causes contention, rather live it than say it. It is
far better to be that example of faith than to talk that example. IMHO
prayer is often better said in silence in the inner room than on the
streets.
Remember Solomon and the baby? Do not tear the poor little bastard in two
AGAIN!
Kind regards
"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
>I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which appears to
>be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as anonymous as
>possible.
>
> Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive members.
> Of the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They are
> also among the founding members of the group.
>
> In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would attend the
> Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group. We say
> the Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was taken a
> couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding members
> brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the other. The
> reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt
> that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could
> be a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time.
> It also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with this to
> leave our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our
> attendance has been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we
> did not follow the traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s
> were not attending. So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was
> reinstituted. We had a business meeting last night and lo and behold the
> ones who had voted the prayer out showed up and succeded in passing a
> "Notice of Intent" to vote on the issue again next month. O.K. but as soon
> as the meeting as over they left even though there was a closed meeting
> scheduled. They very rarely attend open or closed meetings any other time.
> This is becoming divisive especially since they have also made it known
> that once they sell their home they'll be moving on and leaving our group.
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords
> prayer to close their meetings?
> Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are from. The
> reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One else
> uses the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
>

2005-01-19, 7:06 am

By the Lords Prayer, do you mean the one that goes "God, grant me the
serentity to...."? Can't remember the rest of it, even though I've been
saying it twice a week for the last 9 months, lol. It's not something I feel
totally comfortable with. Perhaps this may change over time. I pretty
certain that this method of closing a meeting can discourage some newcomers
from returning.

--
J

John Royer wrote:
> I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which appears
> to
> be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as anonymous as
> possible.
>
> Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive members.
> Of
> the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They are also
> among the founding members of the group.
>
> In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would attend the
> Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group. We say
> the
> Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was taken a
> couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding members
> brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the other. The
> reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt
> that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could
> be
> a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time. It
> also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with this to
> leave
> our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our attendance has
> been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we did not follow
> the
> traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s were not attending.
> So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was reinstituted. We had a
> business
> meeting last night and lo and behold the ones who had voted the prayer out
> showed up and succeded in passing a "Notice of Intent" to vote on the
> issue
> again next month. O.K. but as soon as the meeting as over they left even
> though there was a closed meeting scheduled. They very rarely attend open
> or
> closed meetings any other time. This is becoming divisive especially since
> they have also made it known that once they sell their home they'll be
> moving on and leaving our group.
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords
> prayer to close their meetings?
> Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are from. The
> reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One else
> uses
> the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
>
> Thanks

John Royer

2005-01-19, 11:06 am

No, The one that starts with "Our Father"

"J" <welshalky@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41ee8919@news.greennet.net...
> By the Lords Prayer, do you mean the one that goes "God, grant me the
> serentity to...."? Can't remember the rest of it, even though I've been
> saying it twice a week for the last 9 months, lol. It's not something I
> feel totally comfortable with. Perhaps this may change over time. I pretty
> certain that this method of closing a meeting can discourage some
> newcomers from returning.
>
> --
> J
>
>
>
> John Royer wrote:
>
>

2005-01-19, 11:06 am

I looked it up. At the end of all meetings I go to (Wales), we say the
serenity prayer

http://www.worldprayers.org/frameit...e_serenity.html

--
J

John Royer wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
> No, The one that starts with "Our Father"
>
> "J" <welshalky@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41ee8919@news.greennet.net...

rosie readandpost

2005-01-19, 11:06 am

dear john,
i live in wisconsin, and many, many meetings DO NOT use the lord's
prayer as their ending.
i recently moved, and the meetings here DO use the lords prayer and
i really must agree with your "founding members" it is a CHRISTIAN
prayer and imo, really no longer belongs!

--
http://www.jimhightower.com/air/read.asp?id=11587

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
: I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which
appears to
: be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as
anonymous as
: possible.
:
: Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive
members. Of
: the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They
are also
: among the founding members of the group.
:
: In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would
attend the
: Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group.
We say the
: Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was
taken a
: couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding
members
: brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the
other. The
: reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and
they felt
: that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also
could be
: a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the
time. It
: also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with
this to leave
: our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our
attendance has
: been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we did not
follow the
: traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s were not
attending.
: So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was reinstituted. We had
a business
: meeting last night and lo and behold the ones who had voted the
prayer out
: showed up and succeded in passing a "Notice of Intent" to vote on
the issue
: again next month. O.K. but as soon as the meeting as over they
left even
: though there was a closed meeting scheduled. They very rarely
attend open or
: closed meetings any other time. This is becoming divisive
especially since
: they have also made it known that once they sell their home
they'll be
: moving on and leaving our group.
:
: On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords
Prayer I'd
: like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use
the Lords
: prayer to close their meetings?
: Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are
from. The
: reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One
else uses
: the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
:
: Thanks
:
:
:
:

Robert McGregor

2005-01-19, 7:06 pm

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
>I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which
>appears to be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to
>be as anonymous as possible.
>
> Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive
> members. Of the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5
> years. They are also among the founding members of the group.
>
> In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would
> attend the Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except
> our group. We say the Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of
> a vote which was taken a couple of years ago at a business meeting
> when two of the founding members brought forth a motion to switch
> from the Lords Prayer to the other. The reasoning was that the
> Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt that it was
> excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could be a
> barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time.
> It also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with
> this to leave our group. Last month the subject was revisited
> because our attendance has been declining and it was sggested that
> the fact that we did not follow the traditions in our neck of the
> woods that fellow A.A.'s were not attending. So a vote was taken
> and the Lords prayer was reinstituted. We had a business meeting
> last night and lo and behold the ones who had voted the prayer out
> showed up and succeded in passing a "Notice of Intent" to vote on
> the issue again next month. O.K. but as soon as the meeting as over
> they left even though there was a closed meeting scheduled. They
> very rarely attend open or closed meetings any other time. This is
> becoming divisive especially since they have also made it known
> that once they sell their home they'll be moving on and leaving our
> group.
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords
> Prayer I'd like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic
> area use the Lords prayer to close their meetings?
> Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are
> from. The reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting
> that NO-One else uses the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
>
Given that according to AA's bible, "We found the Great Reality
deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He
may be found. It was so with us" why on earth should AA folks be
praying to a mythical father in heaven?

Bob

Nat

2005-01-19, 10:06 pm

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords

John:

I'm not a Christian, but I've been around AA for a while and have never yet
attended a meeting that did not end with the Lord's Prayer. That includes
years of meetings in Florida and here in Arkansas, plus a few in California,
Oregon and Nevada.

I've heard of an important group of Atheists in California. I expect they
don't pray much. That's ok...for them. I respect their view even as I
disagree with them. My view is that an AA meeting without the ending prayer
is seriously incomplete.

It sounds to me that you are dealing with the minority that is trying to
change our whole country, not just AA.

Best,

Nat H.
Oxford, AR

John Royer

2005-01-19, 10:06 pm

Thanks to all
Please continue to contribute your submissions.
I need to compile this for next meeting.

"Nat" <n515hoop@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:xp-dnYqIZsAZm3LcRVn-3Q@centurytel.net...
>
> "John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> John:
>
> I'm not a Christian, but I've been around AA for a while and have never
> yet attended a meeting that did not end with the Lord's Prayer. That
> includes years of meetings in Florida and here in Arkansas, plus a few in
> California, Oregon and Nevada.
>
> I've heard of an important group of Atheists in California. I expect they
> don't pray much. That's ok...for them. I respect their view even as I
> disagree with them. My view is that an AA meeting without the ending
> prayer is seriously incomplete.
>
> It sounds to me that you are dealing with the minority that is trying to
> change our whole country, not just AA.
>
> Best,
>
> Nat H.
> Oxford, AR
>

[[]]

2005-01-20, 2:06 am

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:ELsHd.31171$K03.696277@news20.bellglobal.com...
> No, The one that starts with "Our Father"

.....and ends with "Amen".

most meeting I attend (save two) end with the Paternoster-Protestant
version. I prefer a simple serenity prayer, myself.

-Steve

Mias

2005-01-20, 4:06 am

rosie readandpost

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

My view is that an AA meeting without the ending prayer
: is seriously incomplete.
:
:

nat,
that sounds like it would be "the habit" of saying the prayer that
you would miss....................

Scott W

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

In article <b_PHd.216293$ye4.97384@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
readandpost@yahoo.com says...
> My view is that an AA meeting without the ending prayer
> : is seriously incomplete.
> :
> :
>
> nat,
> that sounds like it would be "the habit" of saying the prayer that
> you would miss....................
>
>
Such ignorance.

rosie readandpost

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

what do you mean scott?

--
http://www.jimhightower.com/air/read.asp?id=11587

"Scott W" <dkdkd@dkdkdd.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c598aee4c0e6866989703@News.Individual.NET...
: In article <b_PHd.216293$ye4.97384@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
: readandpost@yahoo.com says...
: > My view is that an AA meeting without the ending prayer
: > : is seriously incomplete.
: > :
: > :
: >
: > nat,
: > that sounds like it would be "the habit" of saying the prayer
that
: > you would miss....................
: >
: >
: Such ignorance.
:

John Royer

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

So far the respected opinions of this group here mirror the apparent divide
in our group as well.
I have this thought to offer.

I was ( iguess I still am) a sales person.
One of the things professional sales people learn is a script or if you
will, a talk. First they learn it, then they internalize it and then emote
it. Just as an actor does. The script is based on tried and true methods and
is constantly monitored for it's effectiveness. Just as A.A. has suggestions
so does the script. Every once in a while someone, who is doing so well
using the script, decides to try and make it better, so they tinker with it.
As almost always happens the performance results go down.
Ok now here is my point. back when Bill and Bob pioneered the A.A. concept
they used the tools ther had for the time they were in. Granted it was not
the same world it was as it is now BUT how many times have we observed that
just because it's old doesn't mean it's no good. Using their formula has
helped millions to recover or if nothing else helped millions to maybe live
a little longer. ( Maybe not such a good thing). My point is by tinkering
with a tried and true formula, all in the name of trying to improve or
appease a segment of our society are we not hurting rather than helping
those who need out help. If the suggestions worked then, why not now?

Also is this not likely true? Those of A.A.'s Muslim faiths will tend to
seek out like kind? So too with Asian descent, African americans.IF
POSSIBLE?
If there was an aspect of the meeting I didn't like or conflicted with my
personal beliefs I would just abstain from that part.
I guess I'm saying here that amending a tried and true formula to include
all religious backgrounds would in of itself be divisive because it cannot
possibly be neutral. Someone somewher will take issue with some aspect of
the meeting.

Personal recovery depends upon A.A. UNITY?

Eric Waller

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

There are always people who want to do it differently. When I first got into
the program almost five years ago, I thought the steps were unnecessary,
that I just needed to stop drinking. The fact is that we are a group of
self-centered and selfish people who want our way all the time. I would
offer this to you--all that is needed to start a new group is a coffee pot
and a resentment. We cease to fight anyone or anything. The twelve and
twelve has a story in tradition three about a guy who did not believe in God
and about what happened to the group and to that guy, maybe that story is
applicable here.

Rosie, I have watched this group silently, seldom commenting, and often
wondering why so many people trash you. I enjoy the daily posts as well, but
I do not believe you that LOTS of meetings do not close in the Lord's
Prayer, or that the prayer is not applicable today. I have been to at least
50 different meetings in five states and have never been to one that did not
close this way. I have however seen a LOT of people get drunk, or stay dry
and absolutely miserable, that tried to do this thing differently than it is
laid out traditionally. Good luck if you are trying it that way.

--
Eric Waller

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b_PHd.216293$ye4.97384@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> My view is that an AA meeting without the ending prayer
> : is seriously incomplete.
> :
> :
>
> nat,
> that sounds like it would be "the habit" of saying the prayer that
> you would miss....................
>
>

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
> With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the
Lords
> prayer to close their meetings?

The Lord's Prayer has never been said at any of the meetings in the UK
that I've attended.

Sheenah

rosie readandpost

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

:
: Rosie, I have watched this group silently, seldom commenting, and
often
: wondering why so many people trash you. I enjoy the daily posts as
well, but
: I do not believe you that LOTS of meetings do not close in the
Lord's
: Prayer, or that the prayer is not applicable today. I have been to
at least
: 50 different meetings in five states and have never been to one
that did not
: close this way. I have however seen a LOT of people get drunk, or
stay dry
: and absolutely miserable, that tried to do this thing differently
than it is
: laid out traditionally. Good luck if you are trying it that way.
:
: --
: Eric Waller
:

eric,
if you watch closely, the folks who "trash" me are just a
few............... their malcontented behavior is spread out among a
couple of us!

i just moved, and around here, the meetings that i attend end with
the lords prayer.
where i went to meetings in the last ten years, they ended their
meetings with the serenity prayer or the promises.

in 1982, i sobered up in milwaukee, and we ended our meetings with
the lords prayer or the promises.
and in a neighboring community where i spent another ten +years we
ended our meetings with the serenity prayer.

in my travels around NORTH AMERICA, i have come across many
different ways to end meetings.
each group being autonomous and all!

i especially remember a meeting across from a jail in a city in
ohio, that read the promises at the end, as does a meeting that i
attend in florida.

in my 22+yrs, i have been to many meetings, in many places, and the
one apparent common denominator is that a group conscience decides
their format, not tradition.
imo, that is as it should be.

rosie

rosie readandpost

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

oh, eric?
i've been to a meeting in scottsdale, that used the serenity prayer
also.

--

W, bad for global peace and US image................
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0120-03.htm

"Eric Waller" <ericwaller@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:10v14u45thp8583@corp.supernews.com...
: There are always people who want to do it differently. When I
first got into
: the program almost five years ago, I thought the steps were
unnecessary,
: that I just needed to stop drinking. The fact is that we are a
group of
: self-centered and selfish people who want our way all the time. I
would
: offer this to you--all that is needed to start a new group is a
coffee pot
: and a resentment. We cease to fight anyone or anything. The twelve
and
: twelve has a story in tradition three about a guy who did not
believe in God
: and about what happened to the group and to that guy, maybe that
story is
: applicable here.
:
: Rosie, I have watched this group silently, seldom commenting, and
often
: wondering why so many people trash you. I enjoy the daily posts as
well, but
: I do not believe you that LOTS of meetings do not close in the
Lord's
: Prayer, or that the prayer is not applicable today. I have been to
at least
: 50 different meetings in five states and have never been to one
that did not
: close this way. I have however seen a LOT of people get drunk, or
stay dry
: and absolutely miserable, that tried to do this thing differently
than it is
: laid out traditionally. Good luck if you are trying it that way.
:
: --
: Eric Waller
:
:
: " rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:b_PHd.216293$ye4.97384@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
: > My view is that an AA meeting without the ending prayer
: > : is seriously incomplete.
: > :
: > :
: >
: > nat,
: > that sounds like it would be "the habit" of saying the prayer
that
: > you would miss....................
: >
: >
:
:

rosie readandpost

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

"Eric Waller" <ericwaller@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:10v14u45thp8583@corp.supernews.com...
: There are always people who want to do it differently. When I
first got into
: the program almost five years ago, I thought the steps were
unnecessary,
: that I just needed to stop drinking. The fact is that we are a
group of
: self-centered and selfish people who want our way all the time. I
would
: offer this to you--all that is needed to start a new group is a
coffee pot
: and a resentment. We cease to fight anyone or anything. The twelve
and
: twelve has a story in tradition three about a guy who did not
believe in God
: and about what happened to the group and to that guy, maybe that
story is
: applicable here.
:

eric,
stopping being rigid is an acquired thing, that years in AA has
taught me................i also joined and wanted to change all the
"he" references to "she" or "it" or "us" or
whatever........................i didn't, although i did read the
changes silently to myself!
;)

when i sobered up, the only "daily meditation" book available was
TWENTY FOUR HOURS A DAY, and it was VERY sexist in its
verbiage.....................

today in its new editions it is very "centrist" in its approach.
so, see? change CAN BE a good thing.

where meetings are concerned, that is why the "group conscience" is
such a great tool..................the "openness" of HOW is imo,
about listening, learning and RULE 62.
have a good one!
rosie

Scott W

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

In article <pkaId.124517$NO5.26481@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
readandpost@yahoo.com says...
>
> "Eric Waller" <ericwaller@cableone.net> wrote in message
> news:10v14u45thp8583@corp.supernews.com...
> : There are always people who want to do it differently. When I
> first got into
> : the program almost five years ago, I thought the steps were
> unnecessary,
> : that I just needed to stop drinking. The fact is that we are a
> group of
> : self-centered and selfish people who want our way all the time. I
> would
> : offer this to you--all that is needed to start a new group is a
> coffee pot
> : and a resentment. We cease to fight anyone or anything. The twelve
> and
> : twelve has a story in tradition three about a guy who did not
> believe in God
> : and about what happened to the group and to that guy, maybe that
> story is
> : applicable here.
> :
>
>
> eric,
> stopping being rigid is an acquired thing, that years in AA has
> taught me................i also joined and wanted to change all the
> "he" references to "she" or "it" or "us" or
> whatever........................i didn't, although i did read the
> changes silently to myself!
> ;)
>
> when i sobered up, the only "daily meditation" book available was
> TWENTY FOUR HOURS A DAY, and it was VERY sexist in its
> verbiage.....................
>
Good. The bitches need to know their place.
It's a Man's world.

rosie readandpost

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

LOL!

--

W, bad for global peace and US image................
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0120-03.htm

"Scott W" <dkdkd@dkdkdd.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c5aee6164b8bfca989735@News.Individual.NET...
: In article <pkaId.124517$NO5.26481@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>,
: readandpost@yahoo.com says...
: >
: > "Eric Waller" <ericwaller@cableone.net> wrote in message
: > news:10v14u45thp8583@corp.supernews.com...
: > : There are always people who want to do it differently. When I
: > first got into
: > : the program almost five years ago, I thought the steps were
: > unnecessary,
: > : that I just needed to stop drinking. The fact is that we are a
: > group of
: > : self-centered and selfish people who want our way all the
time. I
: > would
: > : offer this to you--all that is needed to start a new group is
a
: > coffee pot
: > : and a resentment. We cease to fight anyone or anything. The
twelve
: > and
: > : twelve has a story in tradition three about a guy who did not
: > believe in God
: > : and about what happened to the group and to that guy, maybe
that
: > story is
: > : applicable here.
: > :
: >
: >
: > eric,
: > stopping being rigid is an acquired thing, that years in AA has
: > taught me................i also joined and wanted to change all
the
: > "he" references to "she" or "it" or "us" or
: > whatever........................i didn't, although i did read
the
: > changes silently to myself!
: > ;)
: >
: > when i sobered up, the only "daily meditation" book available
was
: > TWENTY FOUR HOURS A DAY, and it was VERY sexist in its
: > verbiage.....................
: >
: Good. The bitches need to know their place
: It's a Man's world.

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

> Rosie, I have watched this group silently....

It's one of the vagaries of usenet. I'll bet that if we were all in a room
together, we'd be as nice as pie

--
J

Eric Waller wrote:
>
> Rosie, I have watched this group silently, seldom commenting, and often
> wondering why so many people trash you. I enjoy the daily posts as well,
> but
> I do not believe you that LOTS of meetings do not close in the Lord's
> Prayer, or that the prayer is not applicable today. I have been to at
> least
> 50 different meetings in five states and have never been to one that did
> not
> close this way. I have however seen a LOT of people get drunk, or stay dry
> and absolutely miserable, that tried to do this thing differently than it
> is
> laid out traditionally. Good luck if you are trying it that way.
>

Dan McGown

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

"J" <welshalky@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41f188a6@news.greennet.net...
>
> It's one of the vagaries of usenet. I'll bet that if we were all in a room
> together, we'd be as nice as pie

>
> --
> J

I was going to make a joke and ask what kind of pie, but we'd probably
find that some of the members have very strongly held beliefs about pie and
would begin sniping at each others' choices.
Oh well, what the hell -- I say coconut cream pie.

Robert McGregor

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

"J" <welshalky@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41f188a6@news.greennet.net...
>
> It's one of the vagaries of usenet. I'll bet that if we were all in
> a room together, we'd be as nice as pie

>
You may be correct, with the exception of the folks who believe
recovery from alcoholism is far more important then being "nice"
people pleasers merely purporting to present a "program of
attraction."

Bob

[[]]

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lEaId.124520$NO5.122956@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> LOL!
> : Good. The bitches need to know their place
> : It's a Man's world.

aMen

;)

[[]]

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:xY6dnWAuPaYyx2zcRVn-jQ@adelphia.com...
> "J" <welshalky@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41f188a6@news.greennet.net...
>
> I was going to make a joke and ask what kind of pie, but we'd probably
> find that some of the members have very strongly held beliefs about pie
> and would begin sniping at each others' choices.
> Oh well, what the hell -- I say coconut cream pie.

perhaps - potted pie?

-Steve

John Royer

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

While I don't doubt that some use the program to further ideological points
of view I find this post sad. Just as when we do something wrong, it usually
comes back to haunt us, so too, does hate and intolerance. Be ware.

"Scott W" <dkdkd@dkdkdd.com> wrote in message >>
> Good. The bitches need to know their place.
> It's a Man's world.

John Droge

2005-01-27, 6:10 am

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:YbjHd.43174$W33.927416@news20.bellglobal.com...
> I belong to a group and an item has come up for discussion which appears
to
> be causing a rift in our group. I'll explain and try to be as anonymous as
> possible.
>
> Our group has approx 20 active members and just as many inactive members.
Of
> the 20 active members 4 have sobriety longer than 5 years. They are also
> among the founding members of the group.
>
> In our region in virtually all of the A.A. meetings one would attend the
> Lords Prayer is said at the end of the meeting. Except our group. We say
the
> Responsibility Pledge. This is as a result of a vote which was taken a
> couple of years ago at a business meeting when two of the founding members
> brought forth a motion to switch from the Lords Prayer to the other. The
> reasoning was that the Lords Prayer was a Christian prayer and they felt
> that it was excluding other religions and beliefs and that it also could
be
> a barrier to newcomers. it was passed by a slim majority at the time. It
> also had the effect of having other members who disagreed with this to
leave
> our group. Last month the subject was revisited because our attendance has
> been declining and it was sggested that the fact that we did not follow
the
> traditions in our neck of the woods that fellow A.A.'s were not attending.
> So a vote was taken and the Lords prayer was reinstituted. We had a
business
> meeting last night and lo and behold the ones who had voted the prayer out
> showed up and succeded in passing a "Notice of Intent" to vote on the
issue
> again next month. O.K. but as soon as the meeting as over they left even
> though there was a closed meeting scheduled. They very rarely attend open
or
> closed meetings any other time. This is becoming divisive especially since
> they have also made it known that once they sell their home they'll be
> moving on and leaving our group.
>
> On the above I'd appreciate comments. With regard to the Lords Prayer I'd
> like to ask if any other groups outside our demographic area use the Lords
> prayer to close their meetings?
> Please if it's possible indicate what state or province you are from. The
> reason I ask this is that it was stated at the meeting that NO-One else
uses
> the Lords Prayer outside of Ontario Canada.
>
> Thanks
>
Hey John
Gettin' in here late. All the meetings I've gone to in Colorado use the
Lord's Prayer, though people tell me that in some they've been to locally
the Serenity Prayer was used. As to the divisive nature of the issue and the
people, just what is it you would expect from a bunch of alcoholics? a
shining example of mental health? As witnessed just by the response here
some of us are indeed sicker then others.
Peace
John

2005-01-27, 6:10 am