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Home > Archive > Recovery aa > September 2005 > Does AA teach Alcoholism is a disease ?
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Does AA teach Alcoholism is a disease ?
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| "AA only teaches the 12 Steps, which say nothing about any diseases
whatsoever. You needn't make up anything to be bothered about." --Virt
Ive run across this idea twice this week from different people so let
me address. No the Big Book does not teach Alcoholism is a disease
(except in the stories) . But there is plenty of other AA teaching that
disease.
The following is from the GSO website.
"The Alcoholic Can Recover
The alcoholic is a sick person suffering from a DISEASE for which
there is no known cure that is, no cure in the sense that he or she
will ever be able to drink moderately, like a nonalcoholic, for any
sustained period. Because it is an illness - a physical compulsion
combined with a mental obsession to drink - the alcoholic must learn
to stay away from alcohol completely in order to lead a normal life.
Fundamentally, alcoholism is a health problem - a physical and
emotional DISEASE - rather than a question of too little willpower or
of moral weakness. Just as there is no point blaming the victim of
diabetes for a lack of willpower in becoming ill, it is useless to
charge the problem drinker with responsibility for the illness or to
regard such drinking as a vice.
*************************************************************
Thats just one example and there are legions of others including
stories in the Big Book that call it a disease. Anyone who has ever
been to more than a handful of meetings knows its the predominate
belief and accepted as fact by most AA's. Some AA groups go so far as
to post signs prohibiting discussion of the matter and saying
"Alcoholism is a disease, thats settled"
To say that AA doesnt teach Alcoholism is a disease is just not honest
Virt. Why dont you at least admit to the truth that it is an AA
teaching?
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| Orange 2005-09-23, 12:12 pm |
| And don't forget this sweeping statement that Bill Wilson
made in the Big Book:
'Resentment is the "number one" offender.
It destroys more alcoholics than anything else.
>From it stem all forms of spiritual disease...'
== The Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 5, How It Works, page 64.
* Agent Orange *
* orange@orange-papers.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
** You believe in God. I believe in God, too. But I also believe
** in Santa Claus, The Easter Bunny, and The Tooth Fairy, so I
** am obviously more religious than you, and morally superior to
** you, because I believe in a lot more supernatural stuff than
** you do.
** Next, I'm going to come to believe that the world is flat, so
** I can really be more religious than all of you.
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| Virtualoso 2005-09-23, 12:12 pm |
| In article <1127450452.981494.195500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "AA only teaches the 12 Steps, which say nothing about any diseases
> whatsoever. You needn't make up anything to be bothered about." --Virt
>
>
> Ive run across this idea twice this week from different people so let
> me address. No the Big Book does not teach Alcoholism is a disease
> (except in the stories) . But there is plenty of other AA teaching that
> disease.
>
> The following is from the GSO website.
> To say that AA doesnt teach Alcoholism is a disease is just not honest
> Virt. Why dont you at least admit to the truth that it is an AA
> teaching?
Okay, you found a couple of uses of the word in GSO stuff. Is that
"plenty"? But then, just a few posts ago you outright said you don't
believe in "alcoholic" at all, for that matter. So these details aren't
your real point here, are they?
C'mon, friend, let's get TO it.
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| Virtualoso 2005-09-23, 12:12 pm |
| In article <1127451776.401812.232930@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Orange <orange.papers@gmail.com> wrote:
> And don't forget this sweeping statement that Bill Wilson
> made in the Big Book....
Well, when a paranoid maniacal conspiracy theory internet crank like
Agent Orange posts, folks stand up and take notice.
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Virtualoso wrote:
> In article <1127450452.981494.195500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Okay, you found a couple of uses of the word in GSO stuff. Is that
> "plenty"? But then, just a few posts ago you outright said you don't
> believe in "alcoholic" at all, for that matter. So these details aren't
> your real point here, are they?
>
> C'mon, friend, let's get TO it.
There are plenty Vire, but Im not going to spend my time looking up all
the references. Its an obvious truth to those that go to meetings that
the "Disease Concept" is prevalent. It is a teaching through both
written literature and oral tradition.
I never said I didnt say there was such a thing as an alcoholic. Thats
your twisted spin and misunderstanding of what I said.
There is such a thing as an Alcoholic. There is such a thing as a
person who has become powerless over alcohol and lost all control. No
doubt about it.
What I said is that even the hopeless Alcoholic can be restored to
normal by God.
There is no such thing as a disease,allergy etc.
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| In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new nature.
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| In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new nature.
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| Kai Ruuska 2005-09-23, 12:12 pm |
| tedw kirjoitti:
> In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new nature.
>
Better than normal? Does that mean it's okay for them to assXXXX then?
--
Kai
"Always be yourself. Unless you suck."
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| In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new nature.
| |
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| On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:20:11 -0700, Virtualoso
<workarts@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>
>Well, when a paranoid maniacal conspiracy theory internet crank like
>Agent Orange posts, folks stand up and take notice.
Folk do ... cause I do. Notice sometimes produces chuckles and I don't
want to miss out on any chuckles.
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On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:19:06 -0700, Virtualoso
<workarts@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>C'mon, friend, let's get TO it.
Hi ho Silver.
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| Lambdascorpii 2005-09-23, 6:45 pm |
| Hostie qu'té intelligent, twé
tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> écrivit dans le message
<1127450452.981494.195500@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> "AA only teaches the 12 Steps, which say nothing about any diseases
> whatsoever. You needn't make up anything to be bothered about." --Virt
>
>
> Ive run across this idea twice this week from different people so let
> me address. No the Big Book does not teach Alcoholism is a disease
> (except in the stories) . But there is plenty of other AA teaching
> that disease.
>
> The following is from the GSO website.
>
>
>
>
>
> "The Alcoholic Can Recover
>
>
> The alcoholic is a sick person suffering from a DISEASE for which
> there is no known cure that is, no cure in the sense that he or she
> will ever be able to drink moderately, like a nonalcoholic, for any
> sustained period. Because it is an illness - a physical compulsion
> combined with a mental obsession to drink - the alcoholic must learn
> to stay away from alcohol completely in order to lead a normal life.
>
> Fundamentally, alcoholism is a health problem - a physical and
> emotional DISEASE - rather than a question of too little willpower or
> of moral weakness. Just as there is no point blaming the victim of
> diabetes for a lack of willpower in becoming ill, it is useless to
> charge the problem drinker with responsibility for the illness or to
> regard such drinking as a vice.
>
> *************************************************************
>
> Thats just one example and there are legions of others including
> stories in the Big Book that call it a disease. Anyone who has ever
> been to more than a handful of meetings knows its the predominate
> belief and accepted as fact by most AA's. Some AA groups go so far as
> to post signs prohibiting discussion of the matter and saying
> "Alcoholism is a disease, thats settled"
>
>
> To say that AA doesnt teach Alcoholism is a disease is just not honest
> Virt. Why dont you at least admit to the truth that it is an AA
> teaching?
| |
| Lambdascorpii 2005-09-23, 6:45 pm |
| tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> écrivit dans le message
<1127455315.583779.265460@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> There are plenty Vire, but Im not going to spend my time looking up
> all the references. Its an obvious truth to those that go to meetings
> that the "Disease Concept" is prevalent. It is a teaching through both
> written literature and oral tradition.
Guruji a parlé, hugh!
| |
| Lambdascorpii 2005-09-23, 6:45 pm |
| tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> écrivit dans le message
<1127455410.768813.46660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new
> nature.
Mé pad'tapettes ché AA... XXXX!
| |
| Lambdascorpii 2005-09-23, 6:45 pm |
| tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> écrivit dans le message
<1127455410.482472.46630@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>:
> In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new
> nature.
Avec ou sans la queue?
| |
|
| Lambdascorpii wrote:
> tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> écrivit dans le message:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Avec ou sans la queue?
Without, in fact they never git any again.
| |
| Lambdascorpii 2005-09-23, 6:45 pm |
| F.H. <connectu2@verizon.net> écrivit dans le message
<2e%Ye.1154$WT3.436@trnddc03>:
> Lambdascorpii wrote:
>
>
>
> Without, in fact they never git any again.
;-)
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| Virtualoso 2005-09-24, 1:29 pm |
| In article <1127455315.583779.265460@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Virtualoso wrote:
>
> There are plenty Vire, but Im not going to spend my time looking up all
> the references. Its an obvious truth to those that go to meetings that
> the "Disease Concept" is prevalent. It is a teaching through both
> written literature and oral tradition.
Look, it's also prevalent at meetings to find folks that have been
drinking, too. You're trying to make too much of the wrong thing out of
what doesn't warrant it.
The plain fact is: everyone has the same reference -- the BB. What's
"taught" or presented or suggested there, is what it is. Regardless of
whatever however many individuals might say at whatever/however many
meetings.
And it's specious of you to try to insist otherwise, don't you think?
If you were just flat, realistically honest about it?
> I never said I didnt say there was such a thing as an alcoholic. Thats
> your twisted spin and misunderstanding of what I said.
>
> There is such a thing as an Alcoholic. There is such a thing as a
> person who has become powerless over alcohol and lost all control. No
> doubt about it.
>
> What I said is that even the hopeless Alcoholic can be restored to
> normal by God.
Heck, even the Bible doesn't say that. But you're welcome to your own
personal custom religion, of course.
> There is no such thing as a disease,allergy etc.
Maybe.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-09-24, 1:29 pm |
| In article <1127455410.768813.46660@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, tedw
<tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In fact, better than normal.They can be "born again" with a new nature.
Is that new nature better than normal? Wow. Are you, personally, now
better than normal people?
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-09-24, 1:29 pm |
| In article <k7i7j1pa3gb9uj4adsjggjivq9rhrjbb1u@4ax.com>, Tex
<twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:19:06 -0700, Virtualoso
> <workarts@safe-mail.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hi ho Silver.
LOL. I think I preferred the Zorro gambit, actually. MUCH more dashing.
| |
| Tommy 2005-09-25, 10:18 am |
|
"Kai Ruuska" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:dh08b2$s9m$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> tedw kirjoitti:
>
> Better than normal? Does that mean it's okay for them to assXXXX then?
>
> --
> Kai
>
> "Always be yourself. Unless you suck."
I'm convinced we are all created a little bit equal - come on really if we
think about it, why was a mans arse made the same shape as another mans
willy - really think deep about how many different shapes the will could
have been. I believe it fits better into the second hole than it does the
first.
http://tinyurl.com/ayng4
Mating season in the Antarctic defies intelligent design
September 21, 2005
FLIGHTLESS seabirds have replaced Mel Gibson as the preferred pin-up for
Jesus freaks. It's all because of a new nature film called March of the
Penguins which depicts the mating ordeals of Antarctic emperor penguins -
ordeals including long, icy marches; short, icy intercourse and an alleged
lack of interest in multiple sex partners.
Christians and conservative politicians reckon the film and its waddling
stars support intelligent design and passionately affirm "traditional norms
like monogamy, sacrifice and child rearing".
One breathless religious type said it was just as enjoyable as The Passion
of the Christ and cleverly renamed it The Passion of the Penguins.
But using animal habits as allegories for human values is risky. Sure it
can work when applied selectively, but the big picture is not so neat. Take
emperor penguins, for instance. Couples are monogamous during the breeding
season, but only one in 20 penguin pairs are still together after two years.
The rest engage in a partner swapping spree that makes the key party scene
in The Ice Storm look like a Hillsong singalong.
Female emperors head back to work immediately after laying, leaving dad to
spend the next few months freezing and foodless with an egg balanced above
his feet and beneath his, ahem, "brood flap".
By the time his chick hatches, he's lost 50 per cent of his body weight and
must engage in the thankless task of regurgitating oesophageal excretions
until mum deigns to return. Parental responsibilities are then shared until
the chick is about 150 days old. At this point it is promptly abandoned.
Really quite different to accepted human norms in child care when you think
about it.
More bad news for Christians comes from the swinging world of chinstrap
penguins. Roy and Silo are two gay chinstraps who live in Manhattan's
Central Park Zoo. Contrary to the erratic behaviour of their heterosexual
peers, Roy and Silo have been going steady for six years straight (or
should that be six years bent?). In addition to hanging out, these
lovebirds exhibit what penguin pundits call "ecstatic behaviour" including
neck entwining, vocalising and getting it on.
Roy and Silo have refused all offers of lady friends and are so family
minded they attempted to incubate a rock. Eventually their sympathetic
keeper offered them a fertile egg and the pair hatched and raised a
daughter called Tango. The zoo is also home to another young, gay chinstrap
couple as well as two lesbian gentoos.
While it's tempting to dismiss all this as New York flamboyance, homosexual
activity has been documented in a whoppin' 450 species of wild animals.
Bonobo apes, for instance, are not only bisexual but crazed root rats.
Females have been observed engaging in girl-on-girl action on an almost
hourly basis.
About 10 to 15 per cent of female western gulls are lesbians and known to
mate with males to produce fertile eggs before returning to their Sapphic
sisters. Same-sex shagging is also common among bottlenose dolphins, rhesus
macaque monkeys and a type of Arctic sandpiper called a ruff.
It'd be fascinating to hear how churchfolk reconcile this type of natural
homo romping with their intelligent design theory. After all, if the big G
intelligently designed female monkeys to play games of erotic peek-a-boo,
who's to say he wasn't planning something similar for humans when he
dreamed up the ingredients for Mardi Gras?
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|
| AA as a whole doesn't teach anything. AA is an opportunity for people to
meet and talk about not drinking.
The result is that AA teaches everything because anyone can share their
experience strength and hope. At any particular meeting you can hear
opposing views.
All the particulars are opinions and suggestions. Even the part about it
being a disease. You can see the same discussion about "disease" and
"homosexuals" and "13th stepping" etc. in the Grapevine as you see here.
The Grapevine is a much more accurate representation of AA than the Big
Book OR the 12x12.
I believe The Big Book was written as a marketing tool, not as a Bible
of AA.
I believe that of the "100" who contributed to writing the Big Book less
than half stayed sober even during the writing.
All in my humble opinion of course.
John
tedw wrote:
> "AA only teaches the 12 Steps, which say nothing about any diseases
> whatsoever. You needn't make up anything to be bothered about." --Virt
>
>
| |
| Kai Ruuska 2005-09-26, 4:48 pm |
| Tommy kirjoitti:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ayng4
>
> Mating season in the Antarctic defies intelligent design
>
Defies? No shit. Meanwhile, in Planet Earth, every person in their
friggin' senses realizes there wasn't anything to begin to defy.
Intelligent Design my XXX.
--
Kai
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|
|
"Kai Ruuska" <> Tommy kirjoitti:
>
>
> Defies? No shit. Meanwhile, in Planet Earth, every person in their
> friggin' senses realizes there wasn't anything to begin to defy.
> Intelligent Design my XXX.
>
> --
> Kai
Look Kai, I can only give you the facts, and my opinions on them :0
When it comes to interpreting them, wall you're on your own.
Intelligent design is a bit difficult for me. Just think about it, first
man running round bollock naked, no way and no how, ever try running without
your balls in a truss.
And as for your woman running to keep up with you, no-oh, I dinna thaink so,
what with two boobs hopping and humping all over the place, can't be done..
Intelligent, no - but I tell you something, I believe god is a man, only he
could have rushed through his final builds, I mean come on it's okay for one
animal to have a hum or two, but on another animal it's a disability. I
rest my case
Cheers
Tommy
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| nipntuk 2005-09-28, 8:37 am |
| On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 19:21:43 +0300, Kai Ruuska <soberon@luukku.com>
wrote:
>Tommy kirjoitti:
>
>
>Defies? No shit. Meanwhile, in Planet Earth, every person in their
>friggin' senses realizes there wasn't anything to begin to defy.
>Intelligent Design my XXX.
I thought intelligent design was all about well engineered eating
utensiles - i.e: sporks (??)
------------------------------
Visit http://www.nacer.org for the real 'Survivor Yucatan'
| |
| David M 2005-09-28, 8:38 am |
| nipntuk wrote:
> I thought intelligent design was all about well engineered
> eating utensiles - i.e: sporks (??)
Sporks are so yesterday.
http://tinyurl.com/ab9j5
| |
|
| David M wrote:
> nipntuk wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Sporks are so yesterday.
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ab9j5
Hmmm, suppose a Knork might be a personal higher power?
| |
| nipntuk 2005-09-28, 8:38 am |
| On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:52:04 -0500, "David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com>
wrote:
>nipntuk wrote:
>
>
>Sporks are so yesterday.
>
>
>http://tinyurl.com/ab9j5
Next up: the knork/spork hybrid - the end of evolution: we have
arrived.....
------------------------------
Visit http://www.nacer.org for the real 'Survivor Yucatan'
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