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The difference between Alcoholism and Drug Addiction
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|
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| The subject has come up before.Personally, I dont think there is much
difference,except that Alcohol is legal.
I was an alcoholic but I was also a drug addict. Sometimes I did both
and other times I did one or the other. There were periods of time for
several years that all I did was drink excessively, alcohol was the
only drug I used then.
Whether it was alcohol, speed, Heroin or whatever all these things did
the same thing: they help you escape from the Truth about yourself you
are unwilling to or dont know how to face.
The person who has only used and abused alcohol generally doesnt see
this.They certainly dont like to think of themselves as a drug addict,
but honestly istnt that what an alcoholic is: a drug addict addicted
to the drug of alcohol.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-15, 12:52 am |
| In article <1129338138.528320.104090@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
tedw <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The subject has come up before.Personally, I dont think there is much
> difference,except that Alcohol is legal.
That's a fairly typical NA attitude.
> I was an alcoholic but I was also a drug addict. Sometimes I did both
> and other times I did one or the other. There were periods of time for
> several years that all I did was drink excessively, alcohol was the
> only drug I used then.
Your story doesn't seem to much recount that.
> Whether it was alcohol, speed, Heroin or whatever all these things did
> the same thing: they help you escape from the Truth about yourself you
> are unwilling to or dont know how to face.
>
> The person who has only used and abused alcohol generally doesnt see
> this.They certainly dont like to think of themselves as a drug addict,
> but honestly istnt that what an alcoholic is: a drug addict addicted
> to the drug of alcohol.
Not necessarily, no. Which is something that drug addicts don't
understand, but many alcoholics do.
| |
| Michael H. 2005-10-15, 12:52 am |
|
"tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1129338138.528320.104090@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The subject has come up before.Personally, I dont think there is much
> difference,except that Alcohol is legal.
>
> I was an alcoholic but I was also a drug addict. Sometimes I did both
> and other times I did one or the other. There were periods of time for
> several years that all I did was drink excessively, alcohol was the
> only drug I used then.
>
> Whether it was alcohol, speed, Heroin or whatever all these things did
> the same thing: they help you escape from the Truth about yourself you
> are unwilling to or dont know how to face.
>
>
> The person who has only used and abused alcohol generally doesnt see
> this.They certainly dont like to think of themselves as a drug addict,
> but honestly istnt that what an alcoholic is: a drug addict addicted
> to the drug of alcohol.
>
I thought that the difference was this...
An alcoholic will steal your wallet but a drug addict will steal your wallet
and then help you look for it.
Peace
mgh
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
| tedw wrote:
> The subject has come up before.Personally, I dont think there is much
> difference,except that Alcohol is legal.
>
> I was an alcoholic but I was also a drug addict. Sometimes I did both
> and other times I did one or the other. There were periods of time for
> several years that all I did was drink excessively, alcohol was the
> only drug I used then.
>
> Whether it was alcohol, speed, Heroin or whatever all these things did
> the same thing: they help you escape.......
I'm an addict. AA saved my life. NA wasn't much available around here in
1988 when I came in. Nowadays I attend both, but far more NA than AA. I get
more there because I can give more there.
I haven't found any in NA who think they're different from another because
of the drug/drugs they abused. I see it in AA all the time. It's sad.
It's been my experience that those who honestly work the 12 steps with great
effort come to realize that it's not about the drug used (alcohol or
whatever) but the escape from reality. After the first step, the substance
isn't mentioned again....
I say a quick prayer for those I meet who I realize don't think alcohol is a
drug. Denial is deadly. If it's not a drug, what is it?
Nice to see you talking about something else here Ted.
Recovery is awesome.
kevin
www.aliveandkickinggroup.com
| |
|
| On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 08:20:50 -0400, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
>I haven't found any in NA who think they're different from another because
>of the drug/drugs they abused. I see it in AA all the time. It's sad.
On the street I saw it all the time and though I don't hang in places
where I see it so much today (on the street) I see it enough to know
it still exists.
Rather than seeing it as sad I see it as singleness of purpose when
carried over into recovery.
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| |
| Andy F. 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
| One difference is that most people can drink alcohol without it doing a
lot of harm. Alcoholics have an abnormal reaction to alcohol which
means that we can't drink it safely.
On the other hand, most people who take heroin get addicted to it.
So you could be a heroin addict without being an alcoholic.And if you
recovered from the heroin addiction it might then be possible for you
to drink normally.
| |
| ByTor 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
| In article <1129338138.528320.104090@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
tedw2@earthlink.net, tedw says...
> Whether it was alcohol, speed, Heroin or whatever all these things did
> the same thing: they help you escape from the Truth about yourself you
> are unwilling to or dont know how to face.
How about simply, "It just felt good."
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
| ByTor 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
| In article <11l1t19d4j0uoaa@corp.supernews.com>,
nospamplease@fullofit.com, sportsfan says...
> I'm an addict. AA saved my life. NA wasn't much available around here in
> 1988 when I came in. Nowadays I attend both, but far more NA than AA. I get
> more there because I can give more there.
> I haven't found any in NA who think they're different from another because
> of the drug/drugs they abused. I see it in AA all the time. It's sad.
> It's been my experience that those who honestly work the 12 steps with great
> effort come to realize that it's not about the drug used (alcohol or
> whatever) but the escape from reality. After the first step, the substance
> isn't mentioned again....
> I say a quick prayer for those I meet who I realize don't think alcohol is a
> drug. Denial is deadly. If it's not a drug, what is it?
>
> Nice to see you talking about something else here Ted.
> Recovery is awesome.
> kevin
> www.aliveandkickinggroup.com
>
>
>
Definately identify here.......I mainly went to AA for atmosphere. NA
was available but at the beginning just hearing the stories would of
triggered me off.......so in the beginning I was very nervous about
hearing about the lifestyle....Would I be "diagnosed" as an alcoholic,
probably not.......Do I think I can drink, sure, do I, no.....Why? Has
to be total abstinence for me because I tried that route & it never
satisfied me, led right back to the drugs........
I never debate the differences because for "me" it does not matter, the
philosophy of recovery is all the same.......To "ME" anyway.
Thx for sharing dat!
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
| Robert McGregor 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
|
"sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote in message
news:11l1t19d4j0uoaa@corp.supernews.com...
>
> I'm an addict. AA saved my life. NA wasn't much available around
> here in
> 1988 when I came in. Nowadays I attend both, but far more NA than
> AA. I get
> more there because I can give more there.
> I haven't found any in NA who think they're different from another
> because
> of the drug/drugs they abused. I see it in AA all the time. It's
> sad.
> It's been my experience that those who honestly work the 12 steps
> with great
> effort come to realize that it's not about the drug used (alcohol
> or
> whatever) but the escape from reality. After the first step, the
> substance
> isn't mentioned again....
> I say a quick prayer for those I meet who I realize don't think
> alcohol is a
> drug. Denial is deadly. If it's not a drug, what is it?
>
If I had not taken the 12 steps with demonstrably great effort, it's
arguable I would not be sober today. However, if I could drink like I
can "use" I would certainly not be an alcoholic. Although I haven't
"used" for years, it's been primarily because of the company I choose
to keep, and prudence, rather than any great desire to be "clean."
From my own experience and observation, you people confuse obsessive
compulsion with a craving you have never experienced. Alcoholic
craving as explained by Silkworth is an entirely different phenomena
That thunder of *denial* from you drug addict infiltrators, and the
uninformed "tolerance and acceptance" of your sycophants in the
alcoholism arena certainly make a mockery of the much vaunted value
of "identification."
Druggies like you don't have a clue that most if not all alcoholics
"of our type" don't necessarily set out to escape from reality with
alcohol. To the contrary, alcoholics merely want to drink like
"normal" people, and only crave *after* ingesting, just like it's
explained in the Big Book.
How often do you fill your gasoline fuel tank with woodchips, or for
that matter, diesel? After all, a fuel is a fuel is a fuel, isn't it?
Anyway, keep praying more arsehole, it just might benefit you.
Bob
| |
| Chronocidal Charlie 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
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Hash: SHA1
sportsfan wrote:
> tedw wrote:
> I say a quick prayer for those I meet who I realize don't think alcohol is
> a drug. Denial is deadly. If it's not a drug, what is it?
>
> Nice to see you talking about something else here Ted.
> Recovery is awesome.
> kevin
I say a quick prayer for those who don't think God is a Baptist. If God is
not a Baptist, then what is He. I mean like they has got to be something
wrong with people who don't see things as I. They are in need of change and
it is my responsibility to tell them there has got to be something wrong
with them, that they are in need of change and I'm going to take every
opportunity I get to tell them so and that I'm going to be benevolently
condescending enough to pray for them and their salvation.
In fact tomorrow morning I'm going to attend the Church of Christ here in
Temple and let them know that. ;-)
But seriously, I imagine there are just as many heathens and sinners get
into heaven by way of the church of Christ and do by way of the Baptist
Church and there are just as many people who have recovered from a
"...seemingly hopeless state of mind and body." by way of NA as AA.
*One* ce they came to a realization they were out of control and quit
drinking, drugging, or possibly any thing else that may have caused them to
be out of control and in a "...seemingly hopeless state of mind and body."
And then...
2. We came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity.
3. We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God
as we understood Him.
4. We made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. We admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact
nature of our wrongs.
6. We were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. We humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. We made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. We made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. We continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. We sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact
with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for
us and the power to carry that out.
And then, they might if they see them selves as a *recovered* *addict,* they
might...
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to addicts, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.
Or if they see themselves as a *recovered* *alcoholic* they might...
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all
our affairs.
But notice I did say *recovered* *alcoholic* and *recovered* *addict.*
The books read a tad different also. Kind of like variations of The Holy
Bible, The Book of Mormon, The Torah, Koran, etc. ;-)
http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~clyde/Bil...troduction.html
http://www.mrpaulalbert.com/na/nabasictext.doc
But again getting more serious, stopping drinking and drugging saved my
life. Taking the twelve steps of Alcoholics Anonymous to the best of my
ability has allowed me to live my life.
If I were to want go to a church in the morning, it would be by choice a
non-denominational or Unitarian Church. If out of dire need and in a pinch,
any church would probably do and I'm sure I would only need to listen
rather than attempt to take part in the affairs of and the direction of
church policy and thinking unless I happened into a Baptist Church and got
moved by the Spirit and forgot that I'm no longer a Deacon in the
Evangelical Baptist Church. ;-)
But Personally, I believe alcohol is a *toxic* *chemical* and I'll say a
prayer for you Kevin who thinks alcohol is a *drug* because *denial* is
*deadly.* If it's not a chemical that when used in sufficient quantities is
*toxic* then what is it. Now don't git offended now Kevin 'cause I sees yew
as needing *my* prayers. ;-)
Pancho needs your prayer's it's true
But save a few for Lefty too
He just did what he had to do...
---Townes van Zandt, Ballad of Pancho and Lefty
Ah well, hell! Maybe someone will get my drift. ;-)
CC
Being Recovered is... Awe, some fun most time I guess. ;-)
- --
A fact is a simple statement that everyone believes. It is innocent, unless
found guilty. A hypothesis is a novel suggestion that no one wants to
believe. It is guilty, until found effective.
- Edward Teller
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| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-15, 10:50 am |
| Robert McGregor wrote:
> From my own experience and observation, you people confuse obsessive
> compulsion with a craving you have never experienced.
.... like all addicts don't crave.
>
> Druggies like you don't have a clue that most if not all alcoholics
> "of our type" don't necessarily set out to escape from reality with
> alcohol.
Right ;^)
To the contrary, alcoholics merely want to drink like
> "normal" people, and only crave *after* ingesting, just like it's
> explained in the Big Book.
Right ;^) I craved alcohol so bad I started drinking before I got to the
party or the bar..... what if there wasn't enough there? Of course there
never was enough there... one is too many and a thousand never enough...
> Anyway, keep praying more arsehole, it just might benefit you.
>
> Bob
time to do the steps again...... doesn't sound like you did a thorough job
last time...
| |
|
|
sportsfan wrote:
> tedw wrote:
>
> I'm an addict. AA saved my life. NA wasn't much available around here in
> 1988 when I came in. Nowadays I attend both, but far more NA than AA. I get
> more there because I can give more there.
> I haven't found any in NA who think they're different from another because
> of the drug/drugs they abused. I see it in AA all the time. It's sad.
> It's been my experience that those who honestly work the 12 steps with great
> effort come to realize that it's not about the drug used (alcohol or
> whatever) but the escape from reality. After the first step, the substance
> isn't mentioned again....
> I say a quick prayer for those I meet who I realize don't think alcohol is a
> drug. Denial is deadly. If it's not a drug, what is it?
>
> Nice to see you talking about something else here Ted.
> Recovery is awesome.
> kevin
> www.aliveandkickinggroup.com
Yes, Kevin, I agree. Its about escape from reality. If you think NA
wasnt available in 1988, you should have seen it in 1978. BTW, if you
think its addiction is escape from reality, explain to me how escape
from reality can be a "disease". Isnt that just ridiculuos?
| |
| Robert McGregor 2005-10-15, 5:56 pm |
| "sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote in message
news:11l27ecb77vj0e0@corp.supernews.com...
> Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> ... like all addicts don't crave.
Relative to alcoholic craving that seems to be almost a given,
despite drug addicts long and loud squawks to the contrary.
>
>
> Right ;^)
Yeah, right, although it's no surprise that bit of reality would be
way too much for your ilk to cope with. Particularly since you
recently sought out the press merely to promote your "heroic"
abstinence.
>
> To the contrary, alcoholics merely want to drink like
>
> Right ;^) I craved alcohol so bad I started drinking before I got
> to the
> party or the bar..... what if there wasn't enough there? Of course
> there
> never was enough there... one is too many and a thousand never
> enough...
Wow, thanks for sharing!
You may not comprehend the AA steps to recovery, however, albeit way
out of context, you've sure got the AAspeak down pat there.
Your example is classic obsession, as *distinct* from alcoholic
craving. Any alcoholic "of our type," even the love and tolerance
sycophants, will probably recognise the difference instantly.
Bob
| |
|
|
>
> Druggies like you don't have a clue that most if not all alcoholics
> "of our type" don't necessarily set out to escape from reality with
> alcohol. To the contrary, alcoholics merely want to drink like
> "normal" people, and only crave *after* ingesting, just like it's
> explained in the Big Book.
>
> How often do you fill your gasoline fuel tank with woodchips, or for
> that matter, diesel? After all, a fuel is a fuel is a fuel, isn't it?
>
> Anyway, keep praying more arsehole, it just might benefit you.
>
> Bob
When it comes to recovery or 'one drunk helping another' Bob, I don't mince
words either.
You are right, a bit severe maybe but correct nontheless. Maybe if there
were more like you attending AA meetings then this oul drug shite could be
kept to where it belongs, in the rooms of NA.
My drug of choice was librium, and a great big glass of Andrews liver salts.
It satiated the thirst, cleared my bowels and then eased the shakes for few
hours until I could get to a bar to restock....
I never did figure out how the bastards always knew I took a few drinks at
lunch hour. I thought for a while it might have been my loose kidneys
after drinking a gallon of ale, then I changed to vodka, but it made me
hoarse, (we did a lot of shouting on the square).. It never struck me that
the ground didn't get uneven after lunch :-)
Cheers
Tommy
>
>
| |
| ~*LiveLoveLaugh*~ 2005-10-16, 12:50 am |
| "Andy F." <never.mind@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:1129383380.793784.200300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> One difference is that most people can drink alcohol without it doing a
> lot of harm. Alcoholics have an abnormal reaction to alcohol which
> means that we can't drink it safely.
> On the other hand, most people who take heroin get addicted to it.
> So you could be a heroin addict without being an alcoholic.And if you
> recovered from the heroin addiction it might then be possible for you
> to drink normally.
Say what?? A drug is a drug is a drug. I remember a great speaker I heard
while I was in rehab for the narcotics I was on. It wasn't until rehab that
I realized I was also an alcoholic. The speaker (God, I loved that dude's
message) was a heroine addict. And today he is clean because he does NO
drugs. NO DRUGS... this means alcohol too. If you don't believe that,
you're kidding yourself.
--
·.·´¨ ¨)) -:¦:-
¸.·´ .·´¨¨))
Laurie
((¸¸.·´ ..·´
-:¦:- ((¸¸ ·.·
*~*LiveLoveLaugh, and hangin' in there!*~*
"How disappointment tracks the steps of hope..."
~Letitia Landon
| |
|
| tedw wrote:
> sportsfan wrote:
>
>
>
> Yes, Kevin, I agree. Its about escape from reality. If you think NA
> wasnt available in 1988, you should have seen it in 1978. BTW, if you
> think its addiction is escape from reality, explain to me how escape
> from reality can be a "disease". Isnt that just ridiculuos?
>
Is schizophrenia a disease? Another escape from reality. How about
bi-polar? What is disease anyway? Its whatever a bunch of people say it is.
John
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 12:50 am |
| tedw wrote:
> Yes, Kevin, I agree. Its about escape from reality. If you think NA
> wasnt available in 1988, you should have seen it in 1978.
I meant it wasn't available much here in my state. I went to a NA meeting in
the next town when I had 30 days in AA. After the NA meeting the other 3
(there were only 4 of us at the meeting) went outside in the hospital
parking lot and smoked a joint. I didn't think I could hang with those guys
so I went back to AA and stayed there for years.
>BTW, if you
> think its addiction is escape from reality, explain to me how escape
> from reality can be a "disease". Isnt that just ridiculuos?
I believe addiction to drugs including alcohol is a disease. So do most
people I know. So does the American Medical Association and the American
Psychiatric Association. I know you think it's sin and not a disease. We'll
just have to agree to disagree on this one.
Be well,
kevin
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 12:50 am |
| Robert McGregor wrote:
> Yeah, right, although it's no surprise that bit of reality would be
> way too much for your ilk to cope with. Particularly since you
> recently sought out the press merely to promote your "heroic"
> abstinence.
Actually I didn't, even thought the article made it seem I did. I was
approached by the author on a referral and I gladly accepted.
Check this website out..... it's not for chickenshit people like you but it
will give you more to make fun of.....
http://www.facesandvoicesofrecovery.org/main/index.php
| |
| Robert McGregor 2005-10-16, 12:50 am |
|
"sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote in message
news:11l3elbjqpckr00@corp.supernews.com...
> Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> Actually I didn't, even thought the article made it seem I did.
OK, while remaining unsurprised, I retract that allegation.
>I was
> approached by the author on a referral and I gladly accepted.
Rest assured junky, apart from collusion in the referral, I have no
doubts on that score.
Bob
| |
| SandyG 2005-10-16, 12:50 am |
| You have a cold - fever, chills, the whole bit. You decide to go to the
drug store and purchase some Tylenol. You are browsing the shelf, and
you see that there are the Tylenol tablets and there is also liquid
Tylenol. Is one any more Tylenol than the other? They are both
Acetominophen - both drugs - and BOTH Tylenol.
If alcohol is not a drug, then why is there cross-tolerance between
alcohol and benzodiazepines?
-Sandy
| |
|
| On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 00:15:23 GMT, "~*LiveLoveLaugh*~"
<Nobody@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
>Say what?? A drug is a drug is a drug. If you don't believe that,
>you're kidding yourself.
I must be kidding myself....cause a drug is a drug is a drug is a
crock of shit.
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| |
| Andy F. 2005-10-16, 10:52 am |
|
sportsfan wrote:
> Andy F. wrote:
>
> Might be possible, but then again I've never seen it. It always seems to
> lead people back to their previous drug of choice though...
>
> check this out also....
> http://www.qis.net/~truth/t_h_i_q_.htm
There are some ex-addicts who post here who say that they can now drink
normally.
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 10:52 am |
| Andy F. wrote:
> There are some ex-addicts who post here who say that they can now
> drink normally.
I have no doubt that it's true. But for most it's probably bad advice.
Being a drug addict and alcoholic I can't do either without reasonably
expecting to get lost in both.
Be well,
kevin
| |
|
| On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 11:44:49 -0400, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
>Andy F. wrote:
>
>I have no doubt that it's true. But for most it's probably bad advice.
>Being a drug addict and alcoholic I can't do either without reasonably
>expecting to get lost in both.
>
>Be well,
>kevin
>
If one is an addict and an alcoholic rather than just an addict and
some addicts can drink normally than it would appear there is some
sort of difference between an addict and an alcoholic.
As to differences it would seem as far as recovery they are more so
slight than say to using.
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| |
| Tim and Lisa 2005-10-16, 12:50 pm |
|
"sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote in message
news:11l4tbpt2m6faac@corp.supernews.com...
> Andy F. wrote:
>
> I have no doubt that it's true. But for most it's probably bad advice.
> Being a drug addict and alcoholic I can't do either without reasonably
> expecting to get lost in both.
>
> Be well,
> kevin
>
>
True story for me too! ;o)
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 12:50 pm |
| Tex wrote:
> If one is an addict and an alcoholic rather than just an addict and
> some addicts can drink normally than it would appear there is some
> sort of difference between an addict and an alcoholic.
Perhaps yes, but some who post here are full of themselves and full of shit
as well.
Just as in "real life," take what you need and leave the rest.
| |
| Chronocidal Charlie 2005-10-16, 12:50 pm |
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
sportsfan wrote:
> Tex wrote:
>
> Perhaps yes, but some who post here are full of themselves and full of
> shit as well.
> Just as in "real life," take what you need and leave the rest.
And some come *Potted* and some come *Kettled* but most all come in need of
*cleansing.* It's unfortunate so many wind up *pointing* and *calling*
rather than partaking of the cleansing that could come from harmonious
undertakings rather than cacophonious collisions.
"What usually happens? The show doesn't come off very well. He begins to
think life doesn't treat him right. He decides to exert himself more. He
becomes, on the next occasion, still more demanding or gracious, as the
case may be. Still the play does not suit him. Admitting he may be somewhat
at fault, he is sure that other people are more to blame. He becomes angry,
indignant, self-pitying. What is his basic trouble? Is he not really a
self-seeker even when trying to be kind? Is he not a victim of the delusion
that he can wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if he only
manages well? Is it not evident to all the rest of the players that these
are the things he wants? And do not his actions make each of them wish to
retaliate, snatching all they can get out of the show? Is he not, even in
his best moments, a producer of confusion rather than harmony?"
-Alcoholics Anonymous, 3rd Edition, Chap. V.
CC
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| |
|
| On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:04:21 -0400, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
>Tex wrote:
>
>Perhaps yes, but some who post here are full of themselves and full of shit
>as well.
>Just as in "real life," take what you need and leave the rest.
>
A slight admission of there being a difference is a little bit like
being preggie, full of themselves and full of shit has what to do with
the difference.
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|
| On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:32:54 GMT, Chronocidal Charlie
<clewis4@hot.rr.com> wrote:
>a producer of harmony?"
I don't that stuff.
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| |
| Mark Warner 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| sportsfan wrote:
> Tex wrote:
>
> Perhaps yes, but some who post here are full of themselves and full
> of shit as well.
> Just as in "real life," take what you need and leave the rest.
Upthread you said "I have no doubt that it's true" regarding addicts
that can drink normally. Are you now backing off that and saying those
that claim that are full of shit?
And with regards to "Perhaps yes...", are you conceding that there *is*
a difference?
--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying
| |
| Robert McGregor 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
|
"sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote in message
news:11l520urdhb09a4@corp.supernews.com...
> Tex wrote:
>
> Perhaps yes, but some who post here are full of themselves and full
> of shit
> as well.
> Just as in "real life," take what you need and leave the rest.
>
jeez, you're like a kid turning up at a cappella group with a
trumpet, saying, "Take what you need, and leave the rest."
Not to worry baby, hang in there. There's sure to be other trumpeters
eager to fertilise your parody of self esteem.
Bob
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| Mark Warner wrote:
> Upthread you said "I have no doubt that it's true" regarding addicts
> that can drink normally. Are you now backing off that and saying those
> that claim that are full of shit?
When I said that I have no doubt that it is true, I meant that I have no
doubt it's been said here.
The full of shit statement was a broad statement meaning some who post here
are as honest as the day is long, others post to get reactions to their
statements however untrue....
>
> And with regards to "Perhaps yes...", are you conceding that there
> *is* a difference?
A difference between a drug addict and an alcoholic? I believe there is no
difference to the extent that both are escaping reality and the real issues
aren't the substances abused but the inability to cope without self
medication which gets out of control.
Recovery comes from working on those issues.....
Sobriety comes from just ceasing the substance abuse.....
Can an alcoholic "recover" while he's on the marijuana maintenance program?
I think not. Is he sober? Again, I think not. But the rooms of AA have many
such unfortunates. And they think they are sober. And that is their
business, not mine.
Can a drug addict drink in safety? Is he still clean? Is he in recovery or
in denial?
Again, questions for him, not me. As`a regular attendee of both AA and NA I
can be witness to the countless numbers there who have tried to fool
themselves and failed. Keeps it green for me, one day at a time, day 6168
without either....
Be well,
kevin
| |
| Mark Warner 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| sportsfan wrote:
>
> Can an alcoholic "recover" while he's on the marijuana maintenance
> program? I think not. Is he sober? Again, I think not. But the rooms
> of AA have many such unfortunates. And they think they are sober. And
> that is their business, not mine.
How 'bout non-alcoholic brew?
--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying
| |
|
|
"SandyG" <> You have a cold - fever, chills, the whole bit. You decide to go
to the
> drug store and purchase some Tylenol. You are browsing the shelf, and
> you see that there are the Tylenol tablets and there is also liquid
> Tylenol. Is one any more Tylenol than the other? They are both
> Acetominophen - both drugs - and BOTH Tylenol.
>
> If alcohol is not a drug, then why is there cross-tolerance between
> alcohol and benzodiazepines?
>
> -Sandy
Sandy, if this applies to you, that's fine. But remember the flea in the
elephants ear =
Not everything that applies to one, applies to the other.
Or if you are confused, remember what they say at AA meetings and really try
to put out of your mind what was heard in treatment centres.
Cheers
Tommy
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| Mark Warner wrote:
> How 'bout non-alcoholic brew?
If the question is "Is an alcoholic still sober if he drinks non-alcoholic
brew?" I would wonder why not? An alcoholic is sober if he's not drinking
alcohol.....
| |
| Michael H. 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
|
"Mark Warner" <mhwarner.inhibitions@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3rfohuFje01kU1@individual.net...
> sportsfan wrote:
>
> How 'bout non-alcoholic brew?
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> lose .inhibitions when replying
>
Those "unfortunates" who drink near beer... poor souls.
Peace
mgh
| |
| Mark Warner 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| sportsfan wrote:
> Mark Warner wrote:
>
> If the question is "Is an alcoholic still sober if he drinks
> non-alcoholic brew?" I would wonder why not? An alcoholic is sober if
> he's not drinking alcohol.....
....or smoking pot, right?
--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| X-Priority: 3
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Mark Warner wrote:
> ...or smoking pot, right?
An alcoholic doing any kind of non-prescribed drugs is not sober in my
opinion.
A drug addict drinking any alcohol isn't clean either in my opinion.
Be well,
kevin
| |
|
| On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 17:11:18 -0400, "sportsfan"
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
>Mark Warner wrote:
>
>An alcoholic doing any kind of non-prescribed drugs is not sober in my
>opinion.
>
>A drug addict drinking any alcohol isn't clean either in my opinion.
>
>Be well,
>kevin
>
Seems to be a little switching from hardline to thinks & opinion....so
what the differences really boil down to are different points of view?
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|
|
"sportsfan" <
> Mark Warner wrote:
>
> An alcoholic doing any kind of non-prescribed drugs is not sober in my
> opinion.
Kind of tricky ground we walk heh ??
I ended up in A E with a frozen/spasmed muscle around my back bone. The
kindly nurse gave me an injection in the bottom, which didn't work to
alleviate the pain. The specialist gave me another and I don't know for
sure what it was (I suspect morphine of some type) but lads if it was free
and it was prescribed every day, you wouldn't wipe the smile offen my face
with a cheese grater.
One other time I was too ill to be put under, so they gave me librium in the
drip..
Ohh thank heaven for little girls and big ones an all types of inbetween
ones. For that split second of infinity, I was infinite.... Never again
though.
I think the best way out of this dilemma is to take each case on an
individual basis.
After all "Judge not and you shan't be judged" -
well except you were a pervert judge and you were caught with child porn.
But it would be okay then as you wouldn;t be an alkie
Chheeerrssie
Tommie
> A drug addict drinking any alcohol isn't clean either in my opinion.
>
> Be well,
> kevin
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-16, 5:50 pm |
| Tex wrote:
> Seems to be a little switching from hardline to thinks & opinion....so
> what the differences really boil down to are different points of view?
It's always points of view. I'm not running anyone else's program, and I'm
certainly not going to change what's working for me.
But consider this..... a poster asks here, "I'm still not drinking but what
do you think if I try those opiates I keep hearing about?" Now not knowing
anything else about the guy, I'd expect there's a very good chance he can't
experiment in safety.
But, these "pure alcoholics" think it's really about alcohol........
That scares me.
Be well,
kevin
| |
|
|
"Michael H." <>
> "Mark Warner" <@individual.net...
--[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Those "unfortunates" who drink near beer... poor souls.
>
> Peace
> mgh
Aww comeoffit Michael, stop giving him the attention he desires, the bastiid
will go out and buy more douls now :-)
Cheers
| |
|
|
"sportsfan" <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote in message
news:11l5ke97us7v02@corp.supernews.com...
> Tex wrote:
>
> It's always points of view. I'm not running anyone else's program, and I'm
> certainly not going to change what's working for me.
> But consider this..... a poster asks here, "I'm still not drinking but
> what
> do you think if I try those opiates I keep hearing about?" Now not knowing
> anything else about the guy, I'd expect there's a very good chance he
> can't
> experiment in safety.
> But, these "pure alcoholics" think it's really about alcohol........
> That scares me.
> Be well,
> kevin
If we smoke in smoking jackets, and we sleep in sleeping bags, what do we do
in wind breakers?
I imagine mind altering drugs are the ones for druggies to watch out for.
I have a lady in the office who was 'addicted' to what you call tylenol..
She won't take an anadin or an aspirin. Luckily enough we do complimentary
therapies, which seem to give her relief of sorts. Is she a drug addict ??
I don't think so. She isn't an alcoholic either. Is there a specific path
for her to follow. Are there people like her with compulsions for other
medications that are not mind altering but do give pain relief. In a very
pedantic way, relieving pain gives an altered state to the brain - but its
such a far reaching conclusion to state that their mind state is altered as
to be negligible.
Flea in the elephants ear stuff again. Or one fit for all if thats the way
to call it.
Cheers
Tommy
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| Tommy wrote:
> In a very pedantic way,
> relieving pain gives an altered state to the brain - but its such a
> far reaching conclusion to state that their mind state is altered as
> to be negligible.
Apparently you've never tried my favorite pain reliever, morphine. Does a
number on the brain for sure. Or how about the fastest growing opiate,
oxycontin? Talk about an altered brain state.
I don't know anyone addicted to tylenol as you say, but I guess you can be
psychologically addicted to anything. Not sure about an altered brain state
for that kind of pain reliever though.... not like they're narcotics or
anything like that.
Be well,
kevin
| |
| Michael H. 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
|
"Tommy" <tommyleprechaun@anywhere.com> wrote in message
news:AiA4f.2330$sm1.1445@newsfe5-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Michael H." <>
> --
>
>
> Aww comeoffit Michael, stop giving him the attention he desires, the
> bastiid will go out and buy more douls now :-)
> Cheers
>
Prolly no worse then suckin down the head off a Guinness... 
Peace
mgh
| |
| sportsfan 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| Tommy wrote:
> Kind of tricky ground we walk heh ??
>
> I ended up in A E with a frozen/spasmed muscle around my back bone.
> The kindly nurse gave me an injection in the bottom, which didn't
> work to alleviate the pain. The specialist gave me another and I
> don't know for sure what it was (I suspect morphine of some type) but
> lads if it was free and it was prescribed every day, you wouldn't
> wipe the smile offen my face with a cheese grater.
I responded to your other comment before I read this. Sounds like it well
could have been morphine. I abused it often during addiction. Had it once 10
years later in a drip for 3 days following extensive shoulder surgery. I'd
almost forgotten what it was like. They could have operated on me daily if
they kept that drip going ;^)
>
> One other time I was too ill to be put under, so they gave me librium
> in the drip..
>
> Ohh thank heaven for little girls and big ones an all types of
> inbetween ones. For that split second of infinity, I was
> infinite.... Never again though.
Tommy, don't experiment with drugs, especially opiates. Seriously.
Be well,
kevin
| |
| SandyG 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| Tommy wrote:
> "SandyG" <> You have a cold - fever, chills, the whole bit. You
> decide to go to the
>
> Sandy, if this applies to you, that's fine. But remember the flea in
> the elephants ear =
>
> Not everything that applies to one, applies to the other.
> Or if you are confused, remember what they say at AA meetings and
> really try to put out of your mind what was heard in treatment
> centres.
>
> Cheers
> Tommy
I didn't hear that in a treatment center.
--
-Sandy
"Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage. Rage against the dying of
the light." -Dylan Thomas
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <11l1t19d4j0uoaa@corp.supernews.com>, sportsfan
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
> tedw wrote:
>
> I'm an addict. AA saved my life. NA wasn't much available around here in
> 1988 when I came in. Nowadays I attend both, but far more NA than AA. I get
> more there because I can give more there.
> I haven't found any in NA who think they're different from another because
> of the drug/drugs they abused. I see it in AA all the time. It's sad.
> It's been my experience that those who honestly work the 12 steps with great
> effort come to realize that it's not about the drug used (alcohol or
> whatever) but the escape from reality. After the first step, the substance
> isn't mentioned again....
> I say a quick prayer for those I meet who I realize don't think alcohol is a
> drug. Denial is deadly. If it's not a drug, what is it?
How many social shooters do you find down at the corner Junk Pub? Drug
addicts don't "get" alcoholics, by and large. Which is why it can be
unfortunate that so many NA folks keep trying to muck up AA. Long ago
AA made a choice about just this matter.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <Aw84f.2050$No6.1333@fe34.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <11l1t19d4j0uoaa@corp.supernews.com>,
> nospamplease@fullofit.com, sportsfan says...
>
>
> Definately identify here.......I mainly went to AA for atmosphere. NA
> was available but at the beginning just hearing the stories would of
> triggered me off.......so in the beginning I was very nervous about
> hearing about the lifestyle....Would I be "diagnosed" as an alcoholic,
> probably not.......Do I think I can drink, sure, do I, no.....Why? Has
> to be total abstinence for me because I tried that route & it never
> satisfied me, led right back to the drugs........
> I never debate the differences because for "me" it does not matter, the
> philosophy of recovery is all the same.......To "ME" anyway.
>
> Thx for sharing dat!
Did you attend closed AA meetings? I've run across a LOT of drug
addicts and NA members that attend a lot of AA members and simply lie
about being alcoholics, supposedly out of "respect" for AA. LOL
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <disfj20rod@news3.newsguy.com>, SandyG
<Mollypup1@emessen.com> wrote:
> You have a cold - fever, chills, the whole bit. You decide to go to the
> drug store and purchase some Tylenol. You are browsing the shelf, and
> you see that there are the Tylenol tablets and there is also liquid
> Tylenol. Is one any more Tylenol than the other? They are both
> Acetominophen - both drugs - and BOTH Tylenol.
>
> If alcohol is not a drug, then why is there cross-tolerance between
> alcohol and benzodiazepines?
It doesn't matter that it's "a drug". There are some number of
alcoholics that aren't ADDICTED to it. Drug addicts have the darnedest
trouble grokking this, I know. But it's also why AA can be uniquely
invaluable to the alkies that need others to grok the thing. Sure made
all the difference to me. If I'd walked into an undercover NA meeting
passing itself off as "AA" I'd have never gone back.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <1129383380.793784.200300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
Andy F. <never.mind@tesco.net> wrote:
> One difference is that most people can drink alcohol without it doing a
> lot of harm. Alcoholics have an abnormal reaction to alcohol which
> means that we can't drink it safely.
> On the other hand, most people who take heroin get addicted to it.
> So you could be a heroin addict without being an alcoholic.And if you
> recovered from the heroin addiction it might then be possible for you
> to drink normally.
I've met a lot of drug addicts at AA meetings who've assured me that,
while they might often drink heavy, they never really thought they were
alcoholics and it wasn't at all like their drug addiction. Yet, they'll
then turn right around and insist "it's all the same". Go figure.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <cl45l1djmubt46sr1g8u6uiu9ulakedudq@4ax.com>, Tex
<twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 13:04:21 -0400, "sportsfan"
> <nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
>
> A slight admission of there being a difference is a little bit like
> being preggie, full of themselves and full of shit has what to do with
> the difference.
There are alkies that aren't addicted to booze. Drug addicts, and a
number of hard-core alkies have trouble grasping that. It's just not
been their experience, although plenty of drug addicts, even those that
have been problem drinkers, have experienced that heavy drinking... and
don't regard themselves as actually alcoholics. Something was
apparently very different about their drinking and their addiction to
drug(s). Then they "can't see the difference" and insist "it's all the
same". LOL
It sure threw me for a loop for a long time. I'd used and abused some
drugs, maybe bordered on addicted at one point, but was able to nip it
in the bud. Others I just wasn't that taken with or soon realized I'd
be better off without 'em. But booze turned out to be a whole 'nuther
thing. And, not being addicted to that, either, had me careening down
that road for quite awhile. Until I finally made it to AA and... bam...
cleared it up like nothing else.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <11l58ndeg4vra4c@corp.supernews.com>, sportsfan
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
> A difference between a drug addict and an alcoholic? I believe there is no
> difference to the extent that both are escaping reality and the real issues
> aren't the substances abused but the inability to cope without self
> medication which gets out of control.
> Recovery comes from working on those issues.....
> Sobriety comes from just ceasing the substance abuse.....
I see that you don't actually agree with AA's definition of alcoholic
nor the program. Yet, you pose as a poster boy of AA in the press. This
is one reason why that's discouraged. You're not carrying AA's message.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <11l5ke97us7v02@corp.supernews.com>, sportsfan
<nospamplease@fullofit.com> wrote:
> Tex wrote:
>
> It's always points of view. I'm not running anyone else's program, and I'm
> certainly not going to change what's working for me.
> But consider this..... a poster asks here, "I'm still not drinking but what
> do you think if I try those opiates I keep hearing about?" Now not knowing
> anything else about the guy, I'd expect there's a very good chance he can't
> experiment in safety.
> But, these "pure alcoholics" think it's really about alcohol........
> That scares me.
That's actually one of the most important assets of AA, for the
alcoholic. And it's likely among the core basis that AA long ago
decided to devote to a singleness of purpose. NA members, such as
yourself, ought to make the effort to get real clear about that and
genuinely respect it, in fact and act, rather than keep confusing
yourself that NA is AA and that it doesn't matter. It matters. That you
don't know this, or just figure you somehow know "better" because you
don't know this experientially, is what's "scary" about how AA's
getting so NA-ized. For the alcoholics that then lose out on what's
been uniquely valuable there for them.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <Zn84f.2047$No6.890@fe34.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <1129338138.528320.104090@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> tedw2@earthlink.net, tedw says...
>
>
> How about simply, "It just felt good."
There's one thing that alcoholics have in common, even while there are
many different types of alcoholics. And that ain't the one thing.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 am |
| In article <vYg4f.48585$Xl2.27973@twister.nyroc.rr.com>,
~*LiveLoveLaugh*~ <Nobody@myjunkaddy.com> wrote:
> "Andy F." <never.mind@tesco.net> wrote in message
> news:1129383380.793784.200300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Say what?? A drug is a drug is a drug. I remember a great speaker I heard
> while I was in rehab for the narcotics I was on. It wasn't until rehab that
> I realized I was also an alcoholic. The speaker (God, I loved that dude's
> message) was a heroine addict. And today he is clean because he does NO
> drugs. NO DRUGS... this means alcohol too. If you don't believe that,
> you're kidding yourself.
That's pretty much the message of NA and "treatment", yes. And they
certainly do have their place and value. But it's still not necessary
to mistake that for "AA". Nor is there any cause because of that to
"change AA" and its message.
| |
| Kai Ruuska 2005-10-17, 10:51 am |
| Mark Warner kirjoitti:
> sportsfan wrote:
>
>
>
> How 'bout non-alcoholic brew?
>
And what if drinking NA beer makes one want to fornicate with sheep?
--
Kai
"Always be yourself. Unless you suck."
| |
| Kai Ruuska 2005-10-17, 10:51 am |
| Virtualoso kirjoitti:
> In article <Zn84f.2047$No6.890@fe34.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
> <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
>
>
> There's one thing that alcoholics have in common, even while there are
> many different types of alcoholics. And that ain't the one thing.
They all consume/consumed alcohol?
--
Kai
"Always be yourself. Unless you suck."
| |
| ByTor 2005-10-17, 10:51 am |
| In article <161020052112044954%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
says...
> In article <Aw84f.2050$No6.1333@fe34.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
> <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
>
>
> Did you attend closed AA meetings? I've run across a LOT of drug
> addicts and NA members that attend a lot of AA members and simply lie
> about being alcoholics, supposedly out of "respect" for AA. LOL
>
Does it really matter Virt? Do you care or being a pest again?
Why do you assume that "I" would be like that in your judgemental
generalization?.....I'm talking/shared about me, not everybody
else.....I think the most important thing is that AA "SAVED" my XXX and
the "friends" I made there were flexible, understood & were "NOT"
judgemental....
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 12:50 pm |
| In article <s%L4f.19188$to6.11994@fe31.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <161020052112044954%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
> says...
>
> Does it really matter Virt? Do you care or being a pest again?
> Why do you assume that "I" would be like that in your judgemental
> generalization?
What's "judgemental" about merely sharing my experience here? And how
could I both be "generalizing" and "assuming" that just you personally
is what I was referring to?
I asked you outright: did you attend closed AA meetings that are for
alcoholics only, although you are sure that you're not an alcoholic?
> I think the most important thing is that AA "SAVED" my XXX and
> the "friends" I made there were flexible, understood & were "NOT"
> judgemental....
Of course you do. It's all about just you and what's of benefit to just
you. Does that include lieing and pretending to be an alcoholic so that
you could get what you wanted and requiring your "friends" to not call
you on that bullshit, or were they friendships based on lieing to them,
too?
| |
|
| In article <171020051010214683%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
says...
> In article <s%L4f.19188$to6.11994@fe31.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
> <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
>
>
> What's "judgemental" about merely sharing my experience here? And how
> could I both be "generalizing" and "assuming" that just you personally
> is what I was referring to?
How else would one take your statement? It wasn't to complex.
>
> I asked you outright: did you attend closed AA meetings that are for
> alcoholics only, although you are sure that you're not an alcoholic?
>
You asked me one question followed by comparing, it's why I did not
answer your question..........
Quote: "I've run across a LOT of drug addicts and NA members that attend
a lot of AA members and simply lie about being alcoholics, supposedly
out of "respect" for AA. LOL" End quote
I only talk about me & my experiences....Maybe if you directed that
following statement(NOT the question) at "me" instead of giving me your
statistical nonsense you seem to state as FACT, that they lie...Geeeez,
what a pair you have.........
>
> Of course you do. It's all about just you and what's of benefit to just
> you. Does that include lieing and pretending to be an alcoholic so that
> you could get what you wanted and requiring your "friends" to not call
> you on that bullshit, or were they friendships based on lieing to them,
> too?
Here you go again.....Judging me like you know me and the people I
involved myself with.
I don't lie & pretend nothing, I admitted in part of this thread that
would I be diagnosed an alcoholic, NO. How do you know how I acted in
meetings?? Maybe if you even remotely showed any interest in a non-
condescending manner and asked me why I had to get sober/clean(whatever,
I'm sure the words will be important to you)) that way and you were
geniunly interested I might have discussed it.
You seem to only comprehend what you want & than twist it....What's
wrong with getting what I want Virt? That which is most important,
getting my life back? Why does it matter how I did it? If you think it's
decieving & dishonest than you are entitled to your opinion. YOU
obviously do not know what I went through & how I had to recover. So
who's being the selfish, self-centered, insensitive prick now with a one
way view? Are you even in recovery?
You and Ted are beginning to have a lot in common lately.
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-17, 5:51 pm |
| In article <wVR4f.625$qa4.51@fe23.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <171020051010214683%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
> says...
>
> How else would one take your statement? It wasn't to complex.
How else would "one"? Any number of ways.
>
> You asked me one question followed by comparing, it's why I did not
> answer your question..........
No, there wasn't any comparing. I was only just recounting my
experience. You approve of that.
> I only talk about me & my experiences....
What was that you said about "friends" too?
> Maybe if you ...
And maybe if you.
Meanwhile, we're each actually doing what we're doing. Life on life's
terms, eh?
>
> Here you go again.....Judging me like you know me and the people I
> involved myself with.
You just told me, and so again I simply asked you outright, just like
you wondered about "maybe if I'd do". I just did. Again.
> I don't lie & pretend nothing, I admitted in part of this thread that
> would I be diagnosed an alcoholic, NO.
Have you lied at AA meetings about that? You also said outright that
you figure you can drink without a problem, too, didn't you? Why do you
keep ducking and hedging and tapdancing about this plain, simple
question?
> How do you know how I acted in
> meetings??
I don't know how you acted, which is why I've simply asked. Yet, you're
still pretending I've done otherwise. I'm just plainly asking you: have
you lied about being an alcoholic at AA meetings?
> Maybe if you ....
Maybe if you.
> ... I might have discussed it.
No, you're obviously going to great lengths to avoid certain, specific
plain and simple facts -- although you just outright stated some flatly
that apparently now you're uncomfortable about. For some reason.
> ....What's
> wrong with getting what I want Virt? That which is most important,
> getting my life back? Why does it matter how I did it? If you think it's
> decieving & dishonest than you are entitled to your opinion. ...
What's "wrong" about getting what you want, if you break into places
and steal it? It depends on what's being referred to by that, in fact
and act, doesn't it?
Bluntly, it sure seemed to me that you posted fairly clearly by what
you were responding to and confirming and what you also said more
explicitly that you were stating that you are not an alcoholic, yet
claimed membership in AA and attended AA quite a bit.
Since then, all you're doing is tapdancing about the flat and obvious
question about whether you lied about being an alcoholic while
attending AA meetings. I've shared my own experience of encountering
quite a number of drug addicts that are NOT alcoholics, according to
them, attending even closed AA meetings (meant for alcoholics only) but
who told me that they just routinely lied about that.
You've been increasing the impression here, that you've been among
them. What would be "wrong" about you "getting what you want" by lieing
at AA meetings about that?
I think it's self-evident, but if you'd like to play it out further, we
can do that. Perhaps you've already been demonstrating if further right
here in this series of posts so far.
| |
|
| In article <171020051138562177%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
says...
>
> What's "wrong" about getting what you want, if you break into places
> and steal it? It depends on what's being referred to by that, in fact
> and act, doesn't it?
Geez, that's a smart analogy......
>
> Bluntly, it sure seemed to me that you posted fairly clearly by what
> you were responding to and confirming and what you also said more
> explicitly that you were stating that you are not an alcoholic, yet
> claimed membership in AA and attended AA quite a bit.
I went to meetings, and never claimed anything in them. I said also that
would I be "diagnosed as an alcoholic" probably not....Who ever said
that I didn't have experiences with alcohol or may have "potential"
experiences if I continued? Again Virty, YOU only comprehend what you
want because you are the epitamy of a miserable condescending
individual.
>
> Since then, all you're doing is tapdancing about the flat and obvious
> question about whether you lied about being an alcoholic while
> attending AA meetings.
Tapdancing around nothing Virty, it just doesn't apply to me.
> I've shared my own experience of encountering quite a number of drug
> addicts that are NOT alcoholics, according to them, attending even
> closed AA meetings (meant for alcoholics only) but who told me that
> they just routinely lied about that.
And did you boot them out on their asses Virt, and tell them they
shouldn't be there? Convince them of the errors of their ways....
>
> You've been increasing the impression here, that you've been among
> them. What would be "wrong" about you "getting what you want" by lieing
> at AA meetings about that?
Again, who lied about what? Me? Or "everybody" else as you stated.
>
> I think it's self-evident, but if you'd like to play it out further, we
> can do that. Perhaps you've already been demonstrating if further right
> here in this series of posts so far.
And what might that be Virt?
>
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
|
|
"sportsfan" <> I responded to your other comment before I read this. Sounds
like it well
> could have been morphine. I abused it often during addiction. Had it once
> 10
> years later in a drip for 3 days following extensive shoulder surgery. I'd
> almost forgotten what it was like. They could have operated on me daily if
> they kept that drip going ;^)
>
> Tommy, don't experiment with drugs, especially opiates. Seriously.
> Be well,
> kevin
Ohh you bets your beepy I don't and I won't. Several reasons for it that
come to mind are likely that I enjoy eating today - drugs/medication throws
my system in a tizzy, not to mention my extremities of bowels, runny eyes,
irritability shashananana. I don't believe the system is meant for long
term medicating, so I try to live with the slight pain (except migraine, I
have to admit I will drop 2 migrits in a glass of water, shore up the window
with a thick blanket and chill for about 4 hours in a state of groggy).
I dunno, I consider myself so lucky in that I had about 4 years of heavy
medication mixed with lots of alcohol to stave off the pain when the tablets
stopped being effective. Even after a few operations and some more
medication I think I only dealt with things when the drink stopped working.
So far, I can take the major stuff, I'm alive and I have a strong supportive
family, a loving and caring home life, its the itty bitty shitty snitty
things that feck me up - like a paper cut, or a cold sore, or a pimple.
That s all it takes.
People might say that they can't feel love without feeling hate once or
twice. Or how can I feel peace if I never knew 'disturbed' or how can I
know 'lack of pain' if I didn't experience pain. Maybe thats why pain
management works so well, who knows?
Cheers
Tommy
| |
|
|
"SandyG" <>
> I didn't hear that in a treatment center.
> -Sandy
What started out as a profound insight into the differences similarities of
various effects on various nerve endings I suppose, was cut short in the
explaining. I do that sometimes, well I seem to do it a lot, expecting the
people at the other end to get my meanings...
I really mean that :-)
Its just that theres a thin line in there somewhere about the 'effects' that
alcohol (or drugs)have on even different ethnicities - not to mind on
chronic/binge/real/acute etc alcoholics versus a normal everyday take it or
leave it drinker/non drinker social drinker or once a year drinker...
I listen to lectures from a fairly widespread set of Chemists, doctors,
professors etc.. some imported from the UK and one famous Australian guy and
my head is more confused than it used to be.
I kid you not, when they are talking in front of what they would consider a
set of trained pro's, not one of them ever set out the same set of criteria
as another. Honest.
It's theoretical and like all theories, hold about as much water as the last
set of tests :-)
(theories are not to be confused with "the gospel of ARAA experts" now :-))
Cheers
Tommy
| |
| gammler@cox.net 2005-10-18, 12:50 am |
| On 14 Oct 2005 18:02:18 -0700, "tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
I have no quarrel with that. Pharmaceutically, one can make a case
for a difference since alcohol and most drugs affect behavior
differently. In the real world, however, they all lead to the same
place, jails, institutions, or death. This argument has gone round
and round AA ever since I first came into the program, many years ago.
I was an alcoholic only. I was never into "drugs". I have no
problem, however, in calling alcohol a drug. When I am in an AA
meeting, I discuss my issues with alcohol. If I were to elect to
attend another type of meeting, I would discuss my issues with the
"Anonymous" at hand.
>The subject has come up before.Personally, I dont think there is much
>difference,except that Alcohol is legal.
>
>I was an alcoholic but I was also a drug addict. Sometimes I did both
>and other times I did one or the other. There were periods of time for
>several years that all I did was drink excessively, alcohol was the
>only drug I used then.
>
>Whether it was alcohol, speed, Heroin or whatever all these things did
>the same thing: they help you escape from the Truth about yourself you
>are unwilling to or dont know how to face.
>
>
>The person who has only used and abused alcohol generally doesnt see
>this.They certainly dont like to think of themselves as a drug addict,
>but honestly istnt that what an alcoholic is: a drug addict addicted
>to the drug of alcohol.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-18, 12:50 am |
| In article <eUS4f.8248$xZ2.2451@fe57.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
>
> I went to meetings, and never claimed anything in them. I said also that
> would I be "diagnosed as an alcoholic" probably not....Who ever said
> that I didn't have experiences with alcohol or may have "potential"
> experiences if I continued? Again Virty, YOU only comprehend what you
> want because you are the epitamy of a miserable condescending
> individual.
>
>
> Tapdancing around nothing Virty, it just doesn't apply to me.
How could a direct question to you not apply to you?
| |
| ByTor 2005-10-18, 10:52 am |
| In article <171020052231351033%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
says...
> In article <eUS4f.8248$xZ2.2451@fe57.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
> <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
>
>
> How could a direct question to you not apply to you?
>
No, I didn't lie by "just" saying I was an alcoholic to appease people
in AA.....
Is that better? Would it still matter now even though I answered Virt?
I'm sure you'd have something to say anyway in your little "cut & dry"
world so why bother.........
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
|
|
| Craig S. 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| <gammler@cox.net> wrote in message
news:bof8l11937n4ib4fcb1q2ob2vue7maq6nh@4ax.com...
> Pharmaceutically, one can make a case
> for a difference since alcohol and most drugs affect behavior
> differently. In the real world, however, they all lead to the same
> place, jails, institutions, or death.
That's the interested party line at least. "In the real world" that's
generally untrue and irrelevant. Mostly they lead to a lark or a laugh or a
roll in the hay or a (God forbid) hangover.
| |
| nipntuk 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:49:28 -0400, "Craig S."
<cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote:
><gammler@cox.net> wrote in message
>news:bof8l11937n4ib4fcb1q2ob2vue7maq6nh@4ax.com...
>
>
>That's the interested party line at least. "In the real world" that's
>generally untrue and irrelevant. Mostly they lead to a lark or a laugh or a
>roll in the hay or a (God forbid) hangover.
>
Not for addicts/alkies
| |
| Craig S. 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| "nipntuk" <carp_dm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a5ial1tde7ie7v89kckl0jl6not45544vl@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:49:28 -0400, "Craig S."
> <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote:
>
or a[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Not for addicts/alkies
Oh. I thought he was referencing the real world, in which those types of
people comprise a relatively insignificant and not very representative
portion of the population.
| |
| nipntuk 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:08:33 -0400, "Craig S."
<cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote:
>"nipntuk" <carp_dm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:a5ial1tde7ie7v89kckl0jl6not45544vl@4ax.com...
>or a
>
>Oh. I thought he was referencing the real world, in which those types of
>people comprise a relatively insignificant and not very representative
>portion of the population.
>
I think he was referring to addict/alkies in the real world for whom,
though statistically insignificant, the funerals of those we love are
only insignificant in that single respect.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| In article <HT45f.53902$aL1.39220@fe78.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <171020052231351033%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
> says...
>
> No, I didn't lie by "just" saying I was an alcoholic to appease people
> in AA.....
> Is that better? Would it still matter now even though I answered Virt?
> I'm sure you'd have something to say anyway in your little "cut & dry"
> world so why bother.........
Gee, you're so bitterly defensive about this topic. For some reason.
| |
|
| In article <181020052114218857%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
says...
> In article <HT45f.53902$aL1.39220@fe78.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
> <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gee, you're so bitterly defensive about this topic. For some reason.
>
Nice try flipping it on me Virt but it won't work......It's you that
appears to have a problem with me as a so-called "faking" alcoholic
using AA to get my life back......As well as others in your generalizing
comments.
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
| Ted L. 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| "nipntuk" <carp_dm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nisal1dthis68rn7tl22ng1jq3h3od5cc8@4ax.com...
>
> I think he was referring to addict/alkies in the real world for whom,
> though statistically insignificant, the funerals of those we love are
> only insignificant in that single respect.
I'm sure I heard recently that alcohol is involved in 50% of automobile
fatalities. That is not insignificant.
--
Ted L.
Benedictus, qui venit in nomine Domini.
| |
| Craig S. 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| "Ted L." <Tedl719nospamplease@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:sat5f.10$a31.215141@news.sisna.com...
> "nipntuk" <carp_dm@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nisal1dthis68rn7tl22ng1jq3h3od5cc8@4ax.com...
of[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I'm sure I heard recently that alcohol is involved in 50% of automobile
> fatalities. That is not insignificant.
And alcohol hasn't been outlawed and pulled off the market because???!!!
The FDA is a joke with all their puny little Vioxx concerns. Nanny state
priorities are so messed up.
| |
| David M 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| Craig S. wrote:
> "Ted L." wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> And alcohol hasn't been outlawed and pulled off the market
> because???!!!
Didn't they try that once?
| |
| Craig S. 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| "David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3rnep5Fke2nuU1@individual.net...
> Craig S. wrote:
>
>
>
> Didn't they try that once?
Yeah, but they had rank amateurs running the show back then. A strong
visionary like GWB should be able to accomplish that now. All Big Gov has
to do is classify booze as a threat to Homeland Security.
| |
| David M 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| Craig S. wrote:
> "David M" wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Yeah, but they had rank amateurs running the show back
> then. A strong visionary like GWB should be able to
> accomplish that now. All Big Gov has to do is classify booze
> as a threat to Homeland Security.
Well, his daddy wimped out in Iraq and Dubya had to finish the job.
Think he could do just as well cleaning up the Prohibition mess?
| |
| Craig S. 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| "David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3rntq9FjuvkrU1@individual.net...
> Craig S. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Well, his daddy wimped out in Iraq and Dubya had to finish the job.
> Think he could do just as well cleaning up the Prohibition mess?
Since greatness has yet to loom, that may well be his destiny, although his
personal prohibition has sure come into question.
| |
| nipntuk 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| On Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:57:28 -0500, "David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com>
wrote:
>Craig S. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>Well, his daddy wimped out in Iraq and Dubya had to finish the job.
>Think he could do just as well cleaning up the Prohibition mess?
>
Here's the deal:
we cancel the War on Drugs and bring home the Columbian narco ops. We
send them to Kentucky, Tennesee, Napa, Golden and Milwaukee and take
out the producers as they show up for work at the 'labs'. These people
we simply kill.
Then we start jailing the distributors and bartenders along the supply
chain, with mandatory life sentences for a third strike, and build
city-prisons to hold 'em all. We use the new cheap labor force to run
sweat shops and assemble cheap electronics, which we send to China ,
undercutting their markets and reversing the trade deficit.
Users will go to mandatory rehab, or fed maintenance doses of
paraldehyde for life. The females will be cycled into 12 step programs
where they can be used as concubines, and the males be stripped of
employment and then forced into the supply chain in order to survive,
where they will then be cycled into the prison labor force....
BRILLIANT!!!!
| |
|
|
"Craig S." <>> Well, his daddy wimped out in Iraq and Dubya had to finish
the job.
>
> Since greatness has yet to loom, that may well be his destiny, although
> his
> personal prohibition has sure come into question.
Nope, yer all wrong - his daddy was taking major bribes to appear to wimp
out.
One night when they was drinking, his ddaddy tole him about it, so now
they're in it together.
I was looking at a Geographical thaing earlier today, by gum youse have a
lotta lotta 'civvies' working in Columbia.
What I cannot figure is where the hell the coke is coming from if the narcs
are getting more than 50% of it. It's never been more plentiful or cheap in
this end of the world, don't know so much about over there.
We still use auricupuncture for relieving the after effects of a night of
snorting.
How do people stick that shite up their nostril, I get nauseous if the pool
water even gets into my nose, and I gots an African sized pair of nosters
@-))
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| In article <gDp5f.3154$Xb2.1055@fe28.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <181020052114218857%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
> says...
>
> Nice try flipping it on me Virt but it won't work......It's you that
> appears to have a problem with me as a so-called "faking" alcoholic
> using AA to get my life back......As well as others in your generalizing
> comments.
I asked you if you were "faking" it since you said outright that you
had doubts about your alcoholic status and emphasized your drug
addictions otherwise.
AA has a particular singleness of purpose. I didn't make it up. It was
there a long time before I ever got there. And I agree with it
completely.
| |
|
| In article <191020051755291243%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
says...
> I asked you if you were "faking" it since you said outright that you
> had doubts about your alcoholic status and emphasized your drug
> addictions otherwise.
I never said I had any doubts of anything....I SAID, would I be
diagnosed, diagnosed, diagnosed, diagnosed, as an alcoholic, probably
not." WTF part don't you understand?? Did I ever say that I may feel
that I'm one, no......Did I not say that I could very well have the
potential to be one or have "developing problems," yes......I never
admitted to anything, especially to you because why would you even give
a shit Virt?? Except to just take stabs at me......
>
> AA has a particular singleness of purpose. I didn't make it up. It was
> there a long time before I ever got there. And I agree with it
> completely.
>
And to think I waste my time with you, geeez, I gotta be nuts.....
You are so close-minded and one-sided about "ME" it's disgusting .You
didn't make it up but YOU sure as hell defend it..........You are
borderline Tedw with your one-sided crap.....So let me get this
straight, you say you think I'm not an alcoholic so I shouldn't go to AA
cause I'm faking it & lying, but yet you know shit about me, so
according to you if I'm not truly "conforming" to a singleness purpose I
should be marched to the ovens???? Is that about right Virty? Than why
would I have 15yrs if something there didn't help me Virty? I obviously
identified somewhere along the line now didn't I.........
--
*************************************************
The Tobes of Hades, lit by flickering torchlight
The netherworld is gathered in the glare
Prince By-Tor takes the cavern to the north light
The sign of Eth is rising in the air.
By-Tor, knight of darkness,
Centurion of evil, devil's prince.
| |
| Virtualoso 2005-10-20, 5:58 pm |
| In article <CzE5f.7674$dC3.1031@fe35.usenetserver.com>, ByTor
<ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:
> In article <191020051755291243%no@dot.com>, no@dot.com, Virtualoso
> says...
>
>
> I never said I had any doubts of anything....I SAID, would I be
> diagnosed, diagnosed, diagnosed, diagnosed, as an alcoholic, probably
> not." WTF part don't you understand?? Did I ever say that I may feel
> that I'm one, no......Did I not say that I could very well have the
> potential to be one or have "developing problems," yes......I never
> admitted to anything, especially to you because why would you even give
> a shit Virt?? Except to just take stabs at me......
>
>
> And to think I waste my time with you, geeez, I gotta be nuts.....
> You are so close-minded and one-sided about "ME" it's disg | | |