Recovery aa - Christmas and the Hock Shop

Author

Christmas and the Hock Shop

Dougwa

2004-12-24, 11:06 am

Christmas and the hock shop

Ive read some nice things people in recovery have written about
Christmas: How grateful they are that they are sober and have a life.
And thats nice.

For me, Christmas time growing up was fun, and I liked the presents and
festive atmosphere. I grew up in a secular home and it was about Santa,
Rudolph the Red-nose reindeer,Frosty the Snowman and White Christmas.

It has a bit more meaning to me now. After having lived a life of great
sin and suffering Ive realized a few things. First of all, I realize I
never made a choice to be a sinner. I was born a slave to sin. Born
into a living hell you might say. So were you I might add.

I also realize that the sin nature I was born with is an inheritance
from the first man although I doubt I can prove it to you. I know I had
that proclivity to judge (play God) from the first time cruelty
attacked me with its sting. I didnt have to be taught how to hate: it
was my nature.

Ive heard it described different ways. I sometimes use the example of a
car manufactured with a defect. If it was made right from the factory
it would run right. Well, I never ran right. Christian Theologians
probably have a fancy name like the Doctrine of Original Sin or
something like that, but thats how I think of it.

A minister friend of mine uses the example of being born in the Hock
Shop, and I like that. Born in the hock shop. Trouble is that everybody
else is born in the Hock shop too. Except One.

The Virgin Birth of Christ makes sense to me. He is the one born with a
differnt Father than us. And he paid the price to redeem us out of the
hock shop. And somehow,mysteriously,through belief in him and
repentenance of our desire to be God we can be granted a full pardon
and be given a new nature. Thats a lot more meaningful to me than
Santa, Rudolph, Frost, or even a sober Christmas.

I passed by a Church with a sign outside it yesterday. I nodded my head
in agreement as I passed by. It said:
The greatest Christmas Gift came wrapped in a Manager.

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 11:06 am

"Dougwa" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1103900052.840910.281000@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Christmas and the hock shop
>
> Ive read some nice things people in recovery have written about
> Christmas: How grateful they are that they are sober and have a life.
> And thats nice.
>
> For me, Christmas time growing up was fun, and I liked the presents and
> festive atmosphere. I grew up in a secular home and it was about Santa,
> Rudolph the Red-nose reindeer,Frosty the Snowman and White Christmas.
>
>
> It has a bit more meaning to me now. After having lived a life of great
> sin and suffering Ive realized a few things. First of all, I realize I
> never made a choice to be a sinner. I was born a slave to sin. Born
> into a living hell you might say. So were you I might add.
>
>
> I also realize that the sin nature I was born with is an inheritance
> from the first man although I doubt I can prove it to you. I know I had
> that proclivity to judge (play God) from the first time cruelty
> attacked me with its sting. I didnt have to be taught how to hate: it
> was my nature.
>
>
> Ive heard it described different ways. I sometimes use the example of a
> car manufactured with a defect. If it was made right from the factory
> it would run right. Well, I never ran right. Christian Theologians
> probably have a fancy name like the Doctrine of Original Sin or
> something like that, but thats how I think of it.
>
> A minister friend of mine uses the example of being born in the Hock
> Shop, and I like that. Born in the hock shop. Trouble is that everybody
> else is born in the Hock shop too. Except One.
>
> The Virgin Birth of Christ makes sense to me. He is the one born with a
> differnt Father than us. And he paid the price to redeem us out of the
> hock shop. And somehow,mysteriously,through belief in him and
> repentenance of our desire to be God we can be granted a full pardon
> and be given a new nature. Thats a lot more meaningful to me than
> Santa, Rudolph, Frost, or even a sober Christmas.
>
> I passed by a Church with a sign outside it yesterday. I nodded my head
> in agreement as I passed by. It said:
> The greatest Christmas Gift came wrapped in a Manager.
>

Thanks for reminding me of the true meaning of Christmas!!

Craig S.

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:qeWyd.36876$Ew6.3076@twister.socal.rr.com...

> Thanks for reminding me of the true meaning of Christmas!!

The "true meaning of Christmas" is just somebody's opinion. Holiday
celebrations in the secular realm, with warmth and love, family
togetherness, good food, children's laughter, and a genuine thankfulness for
life, can be just as meaningful.

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutcharter.net> wrote in message
news:DeZyd.3831$UR2.2938@fe03.lga...
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:qeWyd.36876$Ew6.3076@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
>
> The "true meaning of Christmas" is just somebody's opinion. Holiday
> celebrations in the secular realm, with warmth and love, family
> togetherness, good food, children's laughter, and a genuine thankfulness
> for
> life, can be just as meaningful.
>
>

Looks like I'm not the only "asshat" in this group!!! For you to refute the
true meaning of Christmas is other than the birth of Christ pretty much not
only puts you in my category, but you get to wear a big "D" (as in "duh") on
your forehead as well!!!

Craig S.

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:CgZyd.49574$gd.45162@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> "Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutcharter.net> wrote in message
> news:DeZyd.3831$UR2.2938@fe03.lga...
>
> Looks like I'm not the only "asshat" in this group!!! For you to refute
the
> true meaning of Christmas is other than the birth of Christ pretty much
not
> only puts you in my category, but you get to wear a big "D" (as in "duh")
on
> your forehead as well!!!

If you choose to put your money on a faux virgin and fictionalized "savior,"
be my guest. I'll just keep living in reality, though.

That you consider yourself to be an "asshat" is pretty telling.

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutcharter.net> wrote in message
news:UsZyd.3833$013.906@fe03.lga...
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:CgZyd.49574$gd.45162@twister.socal.rr.com...
> the
> not
> on
>
> If you choose to put your money on a faux virgin and fictionalized
> "savior,"
> be my guest. I'll just keep living in reality, though.
>
> That you consider yourself to be an "asshat" is pretty telling.
>
>

Thank you for your permission. As for the rest, it's called sarcasm. Oh
yeah, the big "D" on the forehead again.

Craig S.

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:drZyd.49692$gd.38379@twister.socal.rr.com...

> As for the rest, it's called sarcasm.

Some people are able to use it effectively, some aren't.

David M

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

Tim and Lisa wrote:

> Looks like I'm not the only "asshat" in this group!!! For you
> to refute the true meaning of Christmas is other than the
> birth of Christ pretty much not only puts you in my category,
> but you get to wear a big "D" (as in "duh") on your forehead
> as well!!!

Well, Tim and/or Lisa, you'll need to purge a lot of Christmas
customs and traditions to confine the holiday to a celebration
of the birth of Christ.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1292191A

You, as a Christian, would want to worship the Lord in Spirit
and in truth, discerning good from evil.
The truth is that all of the customs of Christmas pre-date the
birth of Jesus Christ, and a study of this would reveal that
Christmas in our day is a collection of traditions and practices
taken from many cultures and nations.

The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration
of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god.

This was done long before the birth of Jesus.

It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that
daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they
assumed that the sun god died.

These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead
three days later as the new-born and venerable sun.

Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing
daylight.

This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift
giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as
sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of
evergreen boughs in procession.

In Germany, the evergreen tree was used in worship and
celebration of the yule god, also in observance of the
resurrected sun god.

The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was
regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship.

Witches and other pagans regarded the red holly as a symbol of
the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana.

The holly wood was used by witches to make wands.

The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to
represent droplets of the semen of the sun god.

Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and
homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath
and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter
them.

These customs transcended the borders of Rome and Germany to the
far reaches of the known world.

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:drZyd.49692$gd.38379@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> "Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutcharter.net> wrote in message
> news:UsZyd.3833$013.906@fe03.lga...
>
> Thank you for your permission. As for the rest, it's called sarcasm. Oh
> yeah, the big "D" on the forehead again.
>

>The "true meaning of Christmas" is just somebody's opinion.

By the way, try looking the word up in the dictionary. It doesn't say
anything about a "secular" definition. The mere idea is an oxymoron.
Perhaps each of us have our own perception and practice of the holiday, but
the "true" meaning is: "a holiday on Dec. 25 celebrating the birth of Jesus
Christ." If you don't want to admit it, it is certainly your privilege to
carry on in your delusional state of denial.

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3336n3F3p8ofdU1@individual.net...
> Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
>
> Well, Tim and/or Lisa, you'll need to purge a lot of Christmas
> customs and traditions to confine the holiday to a celebration
> of the birth of Christ.
>
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?H1292191A
>
> You, as a Christian, would want to worship the Lord in Spirit
> and in truth, discerning good from evil.
> The truth is that all of the customs of Christmas pre-date the
> birth of Jesus Christ, and a study of this would reveal that
> Christmas in our day is a collection of traditions and practices
> taken from many cultures and nations.
>
> The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration
> of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god.
>
> This was done long before the birth of Jesus.
>
> It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that
> daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they
> assumed that the sun god died.
>
> These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead
> three days later as the new-born and venerable sun.
>
> Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing
> daylight.
>
> This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift
> giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as
> sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of
> evergreen boughs in procession.
>
> In Germany, the evergreen tree was used in worship and
> celebration of the yule god, also in observance of the
> resurrected sun god.
>
> The evergreen tree was a symbol of the essence of life and was
> regarded as a phallic symbol in fertility worship.
>
> Witches and other pagans regarded the red holly as a symbol of
> the menstrual blood of the queen of heaven, also known as Diana.
>
> The holly wood was used by witches to make wands.
>
> The white berries of mistletoe were believed by pagans to
> represent droplets of the semen of the sun god.
>
> Both holly and mistletoe were hung in doorways of temples and
> homes to invoke powers of fertility in those who stood beneath
> and kissed, causing the spirits of the god and goddess to enter
> them.
>
> These customs transcended the borders of Rome and Germany to the
> far reaches of the known world.
>
>

Regardless of the date I bet they did not call it Christmas.

David M

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

Tim and Lisa wrote:

> Regardless of the date I bet they did not call it Christmas.

Especially since they didn't speak English.

In order to purify Christmas and get back to its one true
meaning, would you be willing to purge the holiday of all its
pagan rituals and symbols?

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:33386lF3s9osgU1@individual.net...
> Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
>
> Especially since they didn't speak English.
>
> In order to purify Christmas and get back to its one true
> meaning, would you be willing to purge the holiday of all its
> pagan rituals and symbols?
>
>
>
>

You're really grasping at straws now, bud. Nothing I have said would lead
one to come to that conclusion. I too enjoy the laughter of my children as
they tear into gifts Christmas morn. I too appreciate the love and effort
that go into the preparation of a traditional Christmas dinner. Spending
the day with family and close friends, sharing tales of Christmas' past,
listening to Christmas carols, etc. are all activities I not only thoroughly
enjoy, but also associate with the holiday. The main gist of what I
originally said to Doug was pure and simple that I appreciate him reminding
*me* of the *true* meaning of Christmas. (*starred for emphasis*)

David M

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

Tim and Lisa wrote:

> The main gist of what I originally said to Doug was pure and
> simple that I appreciate him reminding *me* of the *true*
> meaning of Christmas. (*starred for emphasis*)

Who is Doug? Your response was to Craig and I quote it in
total:

"Looks like I'm not the only 'asshat' in this group!!! For you
to refute the true meaning of Christmas is other than the birth
of Christ pretty much not only puts you in my category, but you
get to wear a big 'D' (as in 'duh') on your forehead as well!!!"

Thank you for translating it from Asshat. I'm sorry I
misunderstood

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

"David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:333ai8F3pgpkkU1@individual.net...
> Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
>
> Who is Doug? Your response was to Craig and I quote it in
> total:
>
> "Looks like I'm not the only 'asshat' in this group!!! For you
> to refute the true meaning of Christmas is other than the birth
> of Christ pretty much not only puts you in my category, but you
> get to wear a big 'D' (as in 'duh') on your forehead as well!!!"
>
> Thank you for translating it from Asshat. I'm sorry I
> misunderstood
>
>
>The key word here is ((((((ORIGINAL)))))).

Ted L.

2004-12-24, 7:06 pm

In article <33386lF3s9osgU1@individual.net>, David M
<dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote:

> In order to purify Christmas and get back to its one true
> meaning, would you be willing to purge the holiday of all its
> pagan rituals and symbols?

And change the date too, while we're at it?

--
Ted L.

Benedictus, qui venit in nomine Domini.

2004-12-24, 7:07 pm

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:IzZyd.49783$gd.22848@twister.socal.rr.com...

Craig (?) wrote:

>

Tim replied

If you don't want to admit it, it is certainly your privilege to
> carry on in your delusional state of denial.
>
Tim,

I have memories of hearing in both Sunday School and at church that
Christmas is a time for there to be peace on earth and good will to
all men. If you are proud to be a Christian, at this special time for
folks like you, how about temporarily at least, stopping displaying
hostility. towards other posters here ?

Here's some food for thought:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art26301.asp

Best regards

JB

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:07 pm

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqiara$5hv$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:IzZyd.49783$gd.22848@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> Craig (?) wrote:
>
>
> Tim replied
>
> If you don't want to admit it, it is certainly your privilege to
> Tim,
>
> I have memories of hearing in both Sunday School and at church that
> Christmas is a time for there to be peace on earth and good will to
> all men. If you are proud to be a Christian, at this special time for
> folks like you, how about temporarily at least, stopping displaying
> hostility. towards other posters here ?
>
> Here's some food for thought:
>
> http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art26301.asp
>
> Best regards
>
> JB
>
>
>

I don't know what your talking about, You must have me confused with someone
else.

2004-12-24, 7:07 pm

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lo2zd.36929$Ew6.4878@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cqiara$5hv$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
that[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
for[vbcol=seagreen]
displaying[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I don't know what your talking about, You must have me confused with
someone
> else.
>
I have not. The language you used in your reply to Craig: "If you
don't want to admit it, it is certainly your privilege to carry on in
your delusional state of denial", appears confrontational/aggressive
and is likely to cause offence.

JB

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-24, 7:07 pm

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqiden$9me$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:lo2zd.36929$Ew6.4878@twister.socal.rr.com...
> that
> to
> for
> displaying
> someone
> I have not. The language you used in your reply to Craig: "If you
> don't want to admit it, it is certainly your privilege to carry on in
> your delusional state of denial", appears confrontational/aggressive
> and is likely to cause offence.
>
> JB
>
>

In the context of the conversation it was quite true.

Chronocidal Charlie

2004-12-24, 10:06 pm

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

JB wrote:

>
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:IzZyd.49783$gd.22848@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> Craig (?) wrote:
>
>
> Tim replied
>
> If you don't want to admit it, it is certainly your privilege to
> Tim,
>
> I have memories of hearing in both Sunday School and at church that
> Christmas is a time for there to be peace on earth and good
> Here's some food for thought:

Why just Christmas?

>
> http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art26301.asp

Thanks for the link and I deeply wish it could happen again.

> Best regards
>
> JB

Hostility, contempt, sarcasm, ridicule usually breeds hostility, contempt,
sarcasm and ridicule. What else can I say.

Do I dare? Do I even care?

Do I want to speak?

Hell yes! I think I will.

Tim, or Tim and Lisa showed up here sometime back in July I think. May be
wrong. I've pretty well followed most of the threads He/She/They have
started.

What has been *wrong* with Tim and Lisa's posts? What has been *wrong* with
Tim and Lisa?

Actually, in my sometime not so humble opinion, nothing has been wrong.

Just different.

That's all.

I think the archive if one googles back in awe at the entire record of their
history here one might have to say that they have conducted themselves
quite well in light of the circumstances. Damn well, in fact, I'd say
admirably.

http://shorterlink.com/?VC1Y85

And I sincerely hope they can continue in the vein of a post I made which
inspired by them when they first arrived.

http://shorterlink.com/?16WQNK

It never ceases to amaze me what is so frightening or enraging about
different that it causes all the problems in the world I've seen it cause
in the 63 years I've lived and traveled in and over and around a good part
of it.

Is this post a display of hostility? I imagine it will be diagnosed as such
by the many professional diagnosticians on Usenet.

If they do? XXXX em unless they were here before me and can show archived
proof of it. ;-)

And there are two or three,
I will most likely see,
When they come to beat on me.

Merry Christmas to all, and if you don't like it...

See above. ;-)

CC

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBzL/r+dkVHaa1aEkRAprfAJ95Li3gSPP0CYgIV1fcFSe5ktChZACfcMXm
s4FA+B0EeFoefCBaxotBKXM=
=5VcY
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

2004-12-25, 7:06 am

"Chronocidal Charlie" <clewis4@hot.rr.com> wrote in message
news:km3zd.4975$3v5.4839@fe2.texas.rr.com...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> JB wrote:
that[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Why just Christmas?
>
For one day, maybe it's a possibility - although the odds of success
are great. To hope folk to keep it up for any longer would be , IMO,
a hope in vain.
>
> Thanks for the link and I deeply wish it could happen again.
>
Last week, there was an interesting TV programme about the event. It
appears that not all senior British officers were happy with the
ceasefire. It appears that some thought that meeting the enemy might
result in them being no longer being viewed as such and therefore
there would be no more stomach for fighting.

The programme also mentioned Boxing Day. On that day some of the
German soldiers refused to start firing but after the leader of this
"rebellion" was threatened with death as a traitor and others further
down the line started shooting, it crumbled away.

Sometimes, I wish that folk - including myself- would try harder to
live peacably one another.

> Hostility, contempt, sarcasm, ridicule usually breeds hostility,
contempt,
> sarcasm and ridicule.

I agree.
>
> Do I want to speak?
>
> Hell yes! I think I will.
>
<snip>

Charlie, that was in my opinion, the thoughts of a wise man. I am
very glad you spoke your mind.

Wishing you joy and peace and sending you warm regards.

JB

Ron G

2004-12-25, 7:06 pm

> Hostility, contempt, sarcasm, ridicule usually breeds hostility, contempt,
> sarcasm and ridicule. What else can I say.
>
> What has been *wrong* with Tim and Lisa's posts? What has been *wrong*
with
> Tim and Lisa?
>
> Actually, in my sometime not so humble opinion, nothing has been wrong.
>
Charlie, I think that you are absolutely correct in this post. I think that
there are a couple of people who post here regularly who take a superior
elitist intellectual position that if someone else who posts here is not up
to their way of thinking or of their same beliefs that this person should be
ridiculed in any way possible. And the attacks are always become viciously
personal. Then you have a few others who jump on the bandwagon and agree
with the elitists. I also think that they are much braver than they really
are because they can hide behind their computers and know that the odds of
ever having to face the person or persons they belittle, is slim to none.
Perhaps this is the only pleasure that they get out of life, feeling
superior to others.

RonG

2004-12-25, 7:06 pm

"Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
news:koizd.6228$ce6.2197@lakeread07...
contempt,[vbcol=seagreen]
*wrong*[vbcol=seagreen]
> with
wrong.[vbcol=seagreen]
> Charlie, I think that you are absolutely correct in this post. I
think that
> there are a couple of people who post here regularly who take a
superior
> elitist intellectual position that if someone else who posts here is
not up
> to their way of thinking or of their same beliefs that this person
should be
> ridiculed in any way possible. And the attacks are always become
viciously
> personal. Then you have a few others who jump on the bandwagon and
agree
> with the elitists. I also think that they are much braver than they
really
> are because they can hide behind their computers and know that the
odds of
> ever having to face the person or persons they belittle, is slim to
none.
> Perhaps this is the only pleasure that they get out of life, feeling
> superior to others.
>
> RonG

Ron,

I have a question. Have you the courage to name those who'd you put
into the different groups you've described in your post ?
I have asked this question because I've been thinking that it is
cowardly to take pot shots at nameless individuals who have been
"lumped together" in groups that you've created. I think it true that
whenever I've felt the need to criticise someone here or on the other
ARAA, generally, I've had the balls to say my piece to their face.
That's why I'm talking to you :^) BTW, I do not expect an answer to my
question.

Now, I want to say that I've been taken to task for things I've posted
here and on the other ARAA and when I have been, I've usually thought
it a good idea to think about what has been said to me, As a result
of doing so, sometimes there has followed changes in my changes in my
thinking and/or behaviour.

Also, I want to say that there is a short piece entitled "Welcome
Criticism" on page 326 of the book "As Bill Sees It", which I
believe contains an important message for those like me who believe
themselves to be far from being always right and perfect:

"For myself, I have come to set a high value on the people who have
criticised me, whether they have seemed reasonable critics or
unreasonable ones. Both have often restrained me from doing much
worse than I actually have done. t The unreasonable ones have taught
me, I hope, a little patience. But the reasonable one have always
done a great job .............. and have taught me many a valuable
lesson".

Food for thought ?

With best regards

JB

Tommy

2004-12-25, 7:06 pm

"Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
news:koizd.6228$ce6.2197@lakeread07...
wrong.[vbcol=seagreen]
> Charlie, I think that you are absolutely correct in this post. I think
that
> there are a couple of people who post here regularly who take a superior
> elitist intellectual position that if someone else who posts here is not
up
> to their way of thinking or of their same beliefs that this person
should be
> ridiculed in any way possible. And the attacks are always become
viciously
> personal. Then you have a few others who jump on the bandwagon and agree
> with the elitists. I also think that they are much braver than they
really
> are because they can hide behind their computers and know that the odds
of
> ever having to face the person or persons they belittle, is slim to
none.
> Perhaps this is the only pleasure that they get out of life, feeling
> superior to others.
>
> RonG

And then there are those who sit in judgement.

I think mammy should put that stone down - now...

Heard about the parish priest who sent his curate out to gather 10 men to
pray over the soul of a dying man/ The curate returned with all he could
find, apologising for the fact that they were deadbeats and alcoholics -

"Never fear" said the Priest "if these men don't know how to sneak in the
gates of Heaven, then no one will"

I don't think Jesus had many faults, if he did it was that he was fooled
too easily. Now us usenet members, we're none of us fools, we can see the
writing, read between the lines, get a mans measure, can't we?
Cheers
And regardless of PCness I do wish everyone here a sincerely Happy and
Holy Christmas. Later for the new year :-)
Tommy

GaryE

2004-12-25, 7:06 pm

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 13:33:55 -0500, "Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote:

>
>Charlie, I think that you are absolutely correct in this post. I think that
>there are a couple of people who post here regularly who take a superior
>elitist intellectual position that if someone else who posts here is not up
>to their way of thinking or of their same beliefs that this person should be
>ridiculed in any way possible. And the attacks are always become viciously
>personal. Then you have a few others who jump on the bandwagon and agree
>with the elitists. I also think that they are much braver than they really
>are because they can hide behind their computers and know that the odds of
>ever having to face the person or persons they belittle, is slim to none.
>Perhaps this is the only pleasure that they get out of life, feeling
>superior to others.
>
>RonG
>
Ron, I think you take yourself far too seriously....Charlie is one
person entitled to one person's opinion, you are one person entitled
to one person's opinion. Seems fair.

If you dont' agree with it and you dislike personal attacks like you
made here under the cover of 'outspoken spokesman' then apply it to
yourself. Otherwise, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and
any one person's opinion is as 'valid' as another. Charlie disagreed
Not sure what he thought he would accomplish or who he would convert,
but this is Usenet. Rave on.

Now you jump in because you spotted an opening to spew a little shit
yourself doing exactly what you say others are doing who 'jump on the
bandwagon'. Yawn. No matter what you or Charlie say, people are going
to think about Tim and/or Lisa they way they want. Seems fair.
Now I know Charlie understands that because I've seen him get a little
hacked and then recover. But you like to whoop up on folks, right?
You're funny. And a poor baby. This is really tough for you, isn't
it? I'm going to bet you are used to going to meetings and having
people kiss you XXX all over the place. And then cam Usenet. My my.

Best,
GaryE

Ted L.

2004-12-25, 10:06 pm

In article <3361jaF3qrc9uU1@individual.net>, Tommy
<tormyleprechaun@iamanywhere.com> wrote:

> I don't think Jesus had many faults, if he did it was that he was fooled
> too easily.

Why do you say that Tommy? Where was he fooled and by whom?

--
Ted L.

Benedictus, qui venit in nomine Domini.

Everett D.

2004-12-26, 2:06 am

in article koizd.6228$ce6.2197@lakeread07, Ron G at ron@network12.com wrote
on 12/25/04 12:33 PM:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> with

Well, first of all, I don't think it's both Tim and Lisa, but that's the
name attched to the posts.

My main problem with it has been the overly political posts, which don't
much interest me.

But those I suppose I can handle, as I can ignore them.

What broke the camel's back for my was when Tim posted a couple anti-semitic
posts (reposts, I suppose, to which he added his own "Yup!" comments to
things are thought were morally objectionable...the "They just can't see how
evil the Jews are" post in particular.

Ev

Everett D.

2004-12-26, 2:06 am

in article BDF39A55.254E%everetthdyson@yahoo.com, Everett D. at
everetthdyson@yahoo.com wrote on 12/25/04 10:29 PM:

> in article koizd.6228$ce6.2197@lakeread07, Ron G at ron@network12.com wrote
> on 12/25/04 12:33 PM:
>
>
>
> Well, first of all, I don't think it's both Tim and Lisa, but that's the
> name attched to the posts.
>
> My main problem with it has been the overly political posts, which don't
> much interest me.
>
> But those I suppose I can handle, as I can ignore them.
>
> What broke the camel's back for my was when Tim posted a couple anti-semitic
> posts (reposts, I suppose, to which he added his own "Yup!" comments to
> things are thought were morally objectionable...the "They just can't see how
> evil the Jews are" post in particular.
>
> Ev
>

Whoops.

>to things are thought were morally objectionable..

Make that "things >I< thought were morally objectionable." Don't want to
creep toward the passive voice.

Ev

Ron G

2004-12-26, 2:06 am

> it? I'm going to bet you are used to going to meetings and having
> people kiss you XXX all over the place. And then cam Usenet. My my.
>
> Best,
> GaryE

Did I tell you that I have two meetings named after me of which I am the
only leader each week? One is a step meeting and the other is a big book
meetings and I demand that all of the 20 or 30 people that I am currently
sponsoring attend both of these meeting.

Best
RonG

GaryE

2004-12-26, 11:06 am

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:00:56 -0500, "Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote:

>
>Did I tell you that I have two meetings named after me of which I am the
>only leader each week? One is a step meeting and the other is a big book
>meetings and I demand that all of the 20 or 30 people that I am currently
>sponsoring attend both of these meeting.
>
>Best
>RonG
>
I guess its better to be a big fish in a little pond. I didn't think
you were all that concerned about arfer "Tim", just took the
opportunity to take a shot at your demons.
Best,
GaryE

Ron G

2004-12-26, 7:06 pm

"GaryE" <garyexxxnospam@nadaswbell.net> wrote in message
news:gpfts0ltkicnv9ha3afvtj5mptbbkikgug@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 01:00:56 -0500, "Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote:
>
> I guess its better to be a big fish in a little pond. I didn't think
> you were all that concerned about arfer "Tim", just took the
> opportunity to take a shot at your demons.
> Best,
> GaryE
>
Can't say that I have any demons Gary. Got rid of the evil spirits when I
was able to quit drinking. No, I'm not concerned about Tim or any others
here in the sense that somehow I want to stick up for them in some fashion.
I just note how quickly, as it seems to me, that some like yourself, tend to
attack the person when you don't like or disagree with what they post. But
then perhaps, you are what you speak, so the person is fair game.
Best
RonG

GaryE

2004-12-26, 7:06 pm

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:04:01 -0500, "Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote:

>Can't say that I have any demons Gary. Got rid of the evil spirits when I
>was able to quit drinking.

Doesn't look like it Ron. No one was yelling for you to jump in.
Looks like something pushed one of your buttons, the way you wrote it
up.

> No, I'm not concerned about Tim or any others
>here in the sense that somehow I want to stick up for them in some fashion.

Oh, I knew you didn't post because of Tim, you posted to let out a
little venom boiling in you. What you wrote was about you, wasn't it?

>I just note how quickly, as it seems to me, that some like yourself, tend to
>attack the person when you don't like or disagree with what they post.

hahaha..yeah Ron, attack, attack. You're choice of words talk to your
attitude more than anything else. Your problem, that is.

But
>then perhaps, you are what you speak, so the person is fair game.

Fair game? Why put in those terms? Poor little helpless Tim and
thank goodness for big old brave Ron who is here to take care of
people who can't take care of themselves. But wait, this wasn't for
Tim. Ron is not The Great Defender!!

You were just trying to get in your shots Ron. You're just not honest
enough to admit to it. You don't like the 'elite, superior,
intellectual' folks, do you? Good thump phrases, condescending type,
right? Maybe you just feel inferior and don't want to miss a chance
to hit out at those 'elite, superior, intellectual' types. Those are
bad words to a Thumper aren't they?

That's what I saw those anti thinking, anti intellectual Thump
phrases, I figured, oh good' maybe he's talking about me and wouldn't
that be cool, if I could be 'elite, superior, and intellectual."
Joan will be proud, and probably amazed. hahahaha.

Best,
GaryE

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-26, 7:06 pm

"GaryE" <garyexxxnospam@nadaswbell.net> wrote in message
news:1aius099517naio8fkk4prk51dorigjldp@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:04:01 -0500, "Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Doesn't look like it Ron. No one was yelling for you to jump in.
> Looks like something pushed one of your buttons, the way you wrote it
> up.
>

Charlie, I think that you are absolutely correct in this post. I think that
there are a couple of people who post here regularly who take a superior
elitist intellectual position that if someone else who posts here is not up
to their way of thinking or of their same beliefs that this person should be
ridiculed in any way possible. And the attacks are always become viciously
personal.

" I agree too"

>
> Oh, I knew you didn't post because of Tim, you posted to let out a
> little venom boiling in you. What you wrote was about you, wasn't it?
>
>
>
> hahaha..yeah Ron, attack, attack. You're choice of words talk to your
> attitude more than anything else. Your problem, that is.
>
> But
>
>
> Fair game? Why put in those terms? Poor little helpless Tim and
> thank goodness for big old brave Ron who is here to take care of
> people who can't take care of themselves. But wait, this wasn't for
> Tim. Ron is not The Great Defender!!
>
> You were just trying to get in your shots Ron. You're just not honest
> enough to admit to it. You don't like the 'elite, superior,
> intellectual' folks, do you? Good thump phrases, condescending type,
> right? Maybe you just feel inferior and don't want to miss a chance
> to hit out at those 'elite, superior, intellectual' types. Those are
> bad words to a Thumper aren't they?
>
> That's what I saw those anti thinking, anti intellectual Thump
> phrases, I figured, oh good' maybe he's talking about me and wouldn't
> that be cool, if I could be 'elite, superior, and intellectual."
> Joan will be proud, and probably amazed. hahahaha.
>
> Best,
> GaryE

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-26, 7:06 pm

[vbcol=seagreen]

I do not think Ron was defending me, he was telling his truth how he see's
it.

F.H.

2004-12-26, 10:06 pm

Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
>
> I do not think Ron was defending me, he was telling his truth how he see's
> it.

Group dynamics is not your "long suit."

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-26, 10:06 pm

"F.H." <connectu2@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_IJzd.4232$Y57.3906@trnddc08...
> Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
> Group dynamics is not your "long suit."

LOL :o)

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-26, 10:06 pm

"F.H." <connectu2@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_IJzd.4232$Y57.3906@trnddc08...
> Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
> Group dynamics is not your "long suit."
>

I'm learning though, another new word ;
"long suit" (Somethin at which one excels). Thanks! ;o)

Ron G

2004-12-27, 2:06 am

"GaryE" <garyexxxnospam@nadaswbell.net> wrote in message
news:1aius099517naio8fkk4prk51dorigjldp@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 26 Dec 2004 17:04:01 -0500, "Ron G" <ron@network12.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Doesn't look like it Ron. No one was yelling for you to jump in.
> Looks like something pushed one of your buttons, the way you wrote it
> up.
>
fashion.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Oh, I knew you didn't post because of Tim, you posted to let out a
> little venom boiling in you. What you wrote was about you, wasn't it?
>
>
to[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> hahaha..yeah Ron, attack, attack. You're choice of words talk to your
> attitude more than anything else. Your problem, that is.
>
> But
>
>
> Fair game? Why put in those terms? Poor little helpless Tim and
> thank goodness for big old brave Ron who is here to take care of
> people who can't take care of themselves. But wait, this wasn't for
> Tim. Ron is not The Great Defender!!
>
> You were just trying to get in your shots Ron. You're just not honest
> enough to admit to it. You don't like the 'elite, superior,
> intellectual' folks, do you? Good thump phrases, condescending type,
> right? Maybe you just feel inferior and don't want to miss a chance
> to hit out at those 'elite, superior, intellectual' types. Those are
> bad words to a Thumper aren't they?
>
> That's what I saw those anti thinking, anti intellectual Thump
> phrases, I figured, oh good' maybe he's talking about me and wouldn't
> that be cool, if I could be 'elite, superior, and intellectual."
> Joan will be proud, and probably amazed. hahahaha.
>
> Best,
> GaryE

Nice try Gary. When did you get your therapist's license?

Best
RonG

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 4:06 am

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 4:06 am

David M

2004-12-27, 4:06 am

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-27, 4:06 am

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-27, 4:06 am

2004-12-27, 7:06 am

Chronocidal Charlie

2004-12-27, 7:06 am

Ted L.

2004-12-27, 7:06 am

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 11:06 am

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:SO2zd.36932$Ew6.28283@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cqiden$9me$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> In the context of the conversation it was quite true.

Since I hold a different opinion than you, you chose to belittle me. WWJD?

2004-12-27, 11:06 am

"Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote in
message news:7NUzd.4242$RH1.3756@fe03.lga...
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:SO2zd.36932$Ew6.28283@twister.socal.rr.com...
privilege to[vbcol=seagreen]
church[vbcol=seagreen]
will[vbcol=seagreen]
time[vbcol=seagreen]
with[vbcol=seagreen]
you[vbcol=seagreen]
on in[vbcol=seagreen]
confrontational/aggressive[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Since I hold a different opinion than you, you chose to belittle me.
WWJD?
>
Craig,

I'm sure you know that there are many times when it's possible that
something someone says can be interpreted in different ways. You may
also know that how words are interpreted are beyond the control of the
speaker.

Best regards

JB

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 11:06 am

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqkht5$q8b$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I have a question. Have you the courage to name those who'd you put
> into the different groups you've described in your post ?
> I have asked this question because I've been thinking that it is
> cowardly to take pot shots at nameless individuals who have been
> "lumped together" in groups that you've created. I think it true that
> whenever I've felt the need to criticise someone here or on the other
> ARAA, generally, I've had the balls to say my piece to their face.
> That's why I'm talking to you :^) BTW, I do not expect an answer to my
> question.

Hey, anybody wants to call me out, here I am.

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 11:06 am

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqiara$5hv$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Here's some food for thought:
>
> http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art26301.asp

"This Christmas armistice was truly a phenomenon and nothing like it was
ever recorded during the four subsequent Christmases of the war.

"Could it happen again?"
********************

I'd say it helps if both sides practice the same religion.

2004-12-27, 11:06 am

"Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote in
message news:cuVzd.4245$Ea2.3759@fe03.lga...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cqiara$5hv$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "This Christmas armistice was truly a phenomenon and nothing like it
was
> ever recorded during the four subsequent Christmases of the war.
>
> "Could it happen again?"
> ********************
>
> I'd say it helps if both sides practice the same religion.

I know it to be true at an individual level that folk who do not share
a belief in the same God as well as others who believe in no God, are
perfectly well able to live at peace with one another most of the
time. When fallings out occur, it is not on account of religious
differences but rather more often because one party has passed some
comment or behaved in such a way, that they've upset the other.

JB

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqp9m4$bbn$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

> When fallings out occur, it is not on account of religious
> differences

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! You're killing me here.

Historically, millions of people have been systematically killed in the name
of God or because of belonging to a certain religion. See, that's the
problem with religion; people think that their religion is the "correct" one
and that anyone who doesn't hold the same beliefs is somehow "wrong,"
therefore inferior in some way. The ultimate solution is acquiesce or die.
I see real potential danger in believing that one is acting on instruction
from "God," regardless of the message delivery method.

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote in
message news:FFXzd.4253$Mr3.3040@fe03.lga...
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cqp9m4$bbn$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! You're killing me here.
>
> Historically, millions of people have been systematically killed in
the name
> of God or because of belonging to a certain religion.

I agree.

My comment " I know it to be true at an individual level that folk who
do not share a belief in the same God as well as others who believe in
no God, are perfectly well able to live at peace with one another most
of the time. When fallings out occur, it is not on account of
religious differences................ " reflected my knowledge of folk
known to me who do not share the same God or a belief in any God
living peacefully together.

JB

GaryE

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 01:39:06 GMT, "F.H." <connectu2@verizon.net>
wrote:

>Tim and Lisa wrote:
>
>Group dynamics is not your "long suit."

At the risk of sounding superior and elite (though not intellectual),
I think these two are at the top of their game. That is, of course,
why certain folks do *seem* superior and elite. Come to think of it,
if all you know is BB quotes and AA Talk, then it would be quite
natural to see a lot of superior and elite. In AA, thinking is not
allowed (as can be demonstrated in this NG), so one can spend the rest
of their natural lives appropriately focused on 'not drinking' and in
an appropriate state of humility (not necessarily love and tolerance).

As Brother Dave used to say, "Life is too long to get bugged."

Best,
GaryE

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqp66v$tdr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I'm sure you know that there are many times when it's possible that
> something someone says can be interpreted in different ways. You may
> also know that how words are interpreted are beyond the control of the
> speaker.

At this point in history, Christmas has grown and evolved to become
commercialized, gain secular adherence, become nationalized, and obtain
"holiday" status. It is no longer a simple religious observance, so
obstinately insisting there is only one "true" meaning seems somewhat
short-sighted.

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote in
message news:N4Zzd.4256$mw4.2457@fe03.lga...
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cqp66v$tdr$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
that[vbcol=seagreen]
may[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> At this point in history, Christmas has grown and evolved to become
> commercialized, gain secular adherence, become nationalized, and
obtain
> "holiday" status. It is no longer a simple religious observance, so
> obstinately insisting there is only one "true" meaning seems
somewhat
> short-sighted.

I agree that Christmas has become all that you say it has.

Now, re your last sentence. It was Tim/Lisa's comment in" Thanks for
reminding me of the true meaning of Christmas!!" in message
news:qeWyd.36876$Ew6.3076@twister.socal.rr.com... which was a reply to
a post by Dougwa, that prompted you to share your opinion that "The
"true meaning of Christmas" is just somebody's opinion" in message
news:DeZyd.3831$UR2.2938@fe03.lga.... Unlike you appear to me to be,
the opinion they hold is not casuing me to get fussed.

JB

Craig S.

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cqpol2$mrd$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Craig S." <cspurlocktakethisout@takethisoutmtneer.net> wrote in
> message news:N4Zzd.4256$mw4.2457@fe03.lga...
> that
> may
> the
> obtain
> somewhat
>
> I agree that Christmas has become all that you say it has.
>
> Now, re your last sentence. It was Tim/Lisa's comment in" Thanks for
> reminding me of the true meaning of Christmas!!" in message
> news:qeWyd.36876$Ew6.3076@twister.socal.rr.com... which was a reply to
> a post by Dougwa, that prompted you to share your opinion that "The
> "true meaning of Christmas" is just somebody's opinion" in message
> news:DeZyd.3831$UR2.2938@fe03.lga.... Unlike you appear to me to be,
> the opinion they hold is not casuing me to get fussed.

Wow, I'd better stop right here. I'm just a simple man with simple
ideas/ideals. You're much too sharp for me.

David M

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

JB wrote:

> Unlike you appear to me to be, the opinion they hold is not
> causing me to get fussed.

You neglected to note how sarcastically fussed Tim and/or Lisa
became at Craig's rather mild assertion that Christmas has
different meanings to different people.

"Looks like I'm not the only 'asshat' in this group!!! For you
to refute the true meaning of Christmas is other than the birth
of Christ pretty much not only puts you in my category, but you
get to wear a big 'D' (as in 'duh') on your forehead as well!!!"

You live in one of those Godless European countries which
doesn't have any fundamentalist Christians, so you really don't
know how frightening they can be when they get a little
social/political power and start thirsting for more. ;-)

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"David M" <dhmce@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:33b8u6F3rsqeiU1@individual.net...
> JB wrote:
>
> You live in one of those Godless European countries which
> doesn't have any fundamentalist Christians, so you really don't
> know how frightening they can be when they get a little
> social/political power and start thirsting for more. ;-)

It's not necessary to live in such a country to be frightened by the
social/political ambitions of certain folk in it. Tony Blair's
behaviour has at times given me good reason to be afraid for UKians
(friendly smile)

JB

Tara

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

"Craig S." wrote:
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cqkht5$q8b$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> Hey, anybody wants to call me out, here I am.

You know, I've been meaning to tell you what smarmy little butt kisser
I think you are.

There. I feel better now.

Tara

David M

2004-12-27, 7:06 pm

X-Trace: individual.net o/IzfSTjRnBzZiS0GejIkwNyAHULNjBWOgZHE84STlk4OYDkPX
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478
X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478
Xref: newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com alt.recovery.aa:345480

Tara wrote:
> "Craig S." wrote:

[vbcol=seagreen]
> You know, I've been meaning to tell you what smarmy little
> butt kisser I think you are.

> There. I feel better now.

A woman answers the door bell and sees her ex standing there.

"You can kiss my XXX!" she tells him.

"Hey, I didn't come to make up," he says. "I just want to get
my neck ties."

2004-12-28, 2:06 am

Kai R

2004-12-28, 2:06 am

Craig S. kirjoitti:
> "Tara" <taragreen2@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:41D0882E.3F79388D@verizon.net...
>
>
>
> That comes from being utterly selfish and knowing which side my bread's
> buttered on.
>

The one facing the floor?

--
Kai

"Come, muse, let us sing of rats!"

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-28, 7:07 pm

Tim and Lisa

2004-12-28, 7:07 pm

2004-12-29, 2:06 am

Craig S.

2004-12-29, 11:07 am

"Kai R" <me@privacy.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:cqqvsb$9q5$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> Craig S. kirjoitti:
>
> The one facing the floor?

Thank you for the insight, Mr. Murphy.

2004-12-30, 2:06 am

GaryE

2004-12-30, 7:06 am