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What would you do?
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| Vivian 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
speaking to her again.
I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
what she did to me.
I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
What would you do?
Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
| |
| SpiritQuest 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| If I follow the standard definition of abuse, then my wife was "abusive" to
me. (I don't follow the "damned near everything is abuse", btw). Even if I
did, if she is kind to my kids, and they find happiness in a relationship
with her, then as a responsible adult, I am all for it.
By the way, I think you deserve some respect for this. It sounds like
you've actually decided to let your daughter have the relationship she
wants, that may give her something positive.
This struggle between you and your Mom sounds a lot like the struggles that
sometimes happen between divorced parents. The child often is treated as
"disloyal" or "uncaring" if they care for someone who has hurt us. If you
think of the damage done by warring parents, I think you'll see that what
you apparently plan to do is a great thing for your daughter.
And I certainly can affirm that it hurts.
I'm betting you'll put your daughter first, and endure the hurt for her
sake.
"Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote in message
news:1119588708.434832.79600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
>
> My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
> talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
> and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
> them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
> me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
> speaking to her again.
>
> I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
> hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
> what she did to me.
>
> I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
> grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
>
> What would you do?
>
> Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
> supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
>
| |
| Eric Cordian 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| SpiritQuest <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I'm betting you'll put your daughter first, and endure the hurt for her
> sake.
Why should her daughter have unsupervised visits with an abuser? How do
you know grandma won't go off and beat her with a bat the first time
grandma is "defied?"
Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
I certainly hope the girl is taking her shotgun when she visits.
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
| |
| Panther 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Hi Vivian,
"Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote in message
news:1119588708.434832.79600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
>
> My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
> talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
> and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
> them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
> me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
> speaking to her again.
>
With my own children I let them know that they can decide whom they want to
talk with regardless of my opinion or past with that individual. They were
aware of my reasoning for not speaking with my mother and also with abusers.
By that age they were also quite savvy concerning the possibility that the
person might try being manipulative. I also made it clear that while they
have choices as to those they want to have contact and/or a relationship
with, it is also my choice not to and they needed to respect that.
> I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
> hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
> what she did to me.
>
It's a hard situation. But just like it was our responsibility to nurture
and protect our children when they were younger it is also our
responsibility to shift gears and allow them to become adults with adult
decisions and choices.
> I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
> grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
Yes it does hurt. :-( No one ever said being a mother was easy. There is
also the dynamic that as the children grown older (particularly daughters
with their mother) they often "need" a reason to break the apron string so
to speak. Some pretty heavy duty 'testing' can occur. Often this is done
with conflict and that also hurts. It's helpful to have a friend you can
blow steam off with instead of directing it toward your hurt.
>
> What would you do?
>
Survive, dear! Survive!! This too will pass <G>
> Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
> supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
>
Welcome to the group Vivian.
Panther
| |
|
| On 23 Jun 2005 21:51:48 -0700, "Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote:
>What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
>
>My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
>talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
>and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
>them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
>me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
>speaking to her again.
>
>I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
>hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
>what she did to me.
I'm in a similar situation. The last few years, I haven't allowed my
mother any contact with the kids because she was hurting them - the
same emotional abuse she nailed us with. She hit one of them *once*,
when they were very little and she was never alone with any of them
again after that. I'm no longer afraid that my mother will hit one of
them - they're too big and she knows now that if she touches them,
I'll call animal control and have them gas her forty five cats.
My oldest just turned eighteen. She said she has questions and I
warned her that, like me, she would probably never get real answers.
But I can't really stop her if she wants to pursue it. I think I'm
most afraid that my mother will tell her the old lies and she will
believe them.
I told my daughter the truth. I have to trust that she knows me well
enough and is smart and savvy enough to know the truth. Too, my kids
weren't raised with abuse so they aren't as vulnerable to the
manipulations as I was. I told her the truth and told her to talk to
me if she has any questions.
>I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
>grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
*Why* is the default that you should let her have the relationship? I
wanted my kids to have a perfect grandmother, but I wasn't going to
allow my mother to have a relationship with my kids given the way she
was treating them (and me, for that matter). If it were a teacher or
friend who behaved that way, we would never question whether or not to
allow the kid to be around them. We protect our kids from every kind
of XXXXXXX we can, but there is always that question about whether or
not to protect them from a relative.
You have to get past that knee jerk stuff. If it were me, I'd tell
her that you won't stop her when she's eighteen, but until then, she
has to trust that you know what is best.
>What would you do?
>
>Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
>supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
Hi Vivian. I'm Liz. Welcome.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 05:03:38 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
<spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>If I follow the standard definition of abuse, then my wife was "abusive" to
>me. (I don't follow the "damned near everything is abuse", btw). Even if I
>did, if she is kind to my kids, and they find happiness in a relationship
>with her, then as a responsible adult, I am all for it.
>
>By the way, I think you deserve some respect for this. It sounds like
>you've actually decided to let your daughter have the relationship she
>wants, that may give her something positive.
>
>This struggle between you and your Mom sounds a lot like the struggles that
>sometimes happen between divorced parents. The child often is treated as
>"disloyal" or "uncaring" if they care for someone who has hurt us. If you
>think of the damage done by warring parents, I think you'll see that what
>you apparently plan to do is a great thing for your daughter.
What if the mother was abusive is some way to the daughter, as well?
Why would we say this person hurt me, but it's ok for them to be
around my kid?
>
>And I certainly can affirm that it hurts.
>
>I'm betting you'll put your daughter first, and endure the hurt for her
>sake.
>"Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote in message
>news:1119588708.434832.79600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On 24 Jun 2005 05:16:48 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>SpiritQuest <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>Why should her daughter have unsupervised visits with an abuser? How do
>you know grandma won't go off and beat her with a bat the first time
>grandma is "defied?"
Exactly. If anyone else hurts us, we don't let them around our kids.
Why is it always assumed that we should re-think that when it comes to
relatives?
>
>Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
>
>I certainly hope the girl is taking her shotgun when she visits.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:43:54 -0400, "Panther"
<panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>Hi Vivian,
>
>
>"Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote in message
>news:1119588708.434832.79600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>With my own children I let them know that they can decide whom they want to
>talk with regardless of my opinion or past with that individual. They were
>aware of my reasoning for not speaking with my mother and also with abusers.
>By that age they were also quite savvy concerning the possibility that the
>person might try being manipulative. I also made it clear that while they
>have choices as to those they want to have contact and/or a relationship
>with, it is also my choice not to and they needed to respect that.
How old were they when you did this?
>It's a hard situation. But just like it was our responsibility to nurture
>and protect our children when they were younger it is also our
>responsibility to shift gears and allow them to become adults with adult
>decisions and choices.
>
>
>
>Yes it does hurt. :-( No one ever said being a mother was easy. There is
>also the dynamic that as the children grown older (particularly daughters
>with their mother) they often "need" a reason to break the apron string so
>to speak. Some pretty heavy duty 'testing' can occur. Often this is done
>with conflict and that also hurts. It's helpful to have a friend you can
>blow steam off with instead of directing it toward your hurt.
>
>
>
>Survive, dear! Survive!! This too will pass <G>
>
>
>
>Welcome to the group Vivian.
>
>Panther
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On 23 Jun 2005 21:51:48 -0700, "Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote:
>What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
>
>My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
>talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
>and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
>them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
>me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
>speaking to her again.
She's 17 and will soon be old enough to not need your permission to
see her grandmother, so I'd be the bigger woman and tell her OK. It's
going to happen sooner or later right?
>I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
>hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
>what she did to me.
This bothers me. You are being selfish. You say the issue isn't that
your mother might hurt her, but about YOU wanting your child to hate
her grandmother for what happened to you. Wow!
If it's not concern for the safety of your child, but so another
person can hate your mother on your behalf, that to me is just wrong.
Doesn't your daughter have a right to make up her own mind about this
person? And it's true that she might find your mother a likable
person. Often times Mother/Daughter relationships are very different
from Grandmother/Grand daughter relationships.
So if the objection isn't about your daughters safety, but about YOUR
hatred, then you need to step back and take a deep look at this whole
thing.
>I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
>grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
Sure it hurts. Change and the unknown are always scary things.
>What would you do?
I think I've already answered this. Be the big person and let her go,
she's going to go when she turns 18 anyway, so why not now, this way
you are seen in a good light in her eyes.
>Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
>supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
Welcome to aar Vivian. Good luck in this whole thing.
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On 24 Jun 2005 05:16:48 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>SpiritQuest <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>Why should her daughter have unsupervised visits with an abuser? How do
>you know grandma won't go off and beat her with a bat the first time
>grandma is "defied?"
Vivian even said that she wasn't worried about her daughter getting
hurt, it was more about Vivian being hurt because she Wants her
daughter to hate her mother for the things that happend to her.
>Sounds like a recipe for disaster if you ask me.
>
>I certainly hope the girl is taking her shotgun when she visits.
| |
| Panther 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:338nb1db2mbui88e02ppb38bl7d58v6tut@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:43:54 -0400, "Panther"
> <panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
to[vbcol=seagreen]
were[vbcol=seagreen]
abusers.[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
they[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> How old were they when you did this?
They were 12 and 18, one going off to college and the other out working. My
mother was not a major abuser, more manipulative and talking down to people.
I stopped communication with her just before I moved to Vermont when the
kids were in 1st and 3rd grade (actually didn't bother to tell her I had
moved either). As far as I can remember my father's name just never was
brought up and they never asked about him (although I suspect they heard a
thing or two over the years at family gatherings as to how nasty he was).
>
nurture[vbcol=seagreen]
is[vbcol=seagreen]
so[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| Eric Cordian 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> Vivian even said that she wasn't worried about her daughter getting
> hurt,
If the girl does anything that reminds grandma of a situation in which she
was abusive to the girl's mother at the same age, grandma will slip into
her role and perform it. Grandma's old. She can't be retrained.
> it was more about Vivian being hurt because she Wants her
> daughter to hate her mother for the things that happend to her.
Also, don't abusive parents always try to be best pals with their
childrens' children? It's just a way of getting back at their now adult
offspring for daring to criticize them. Grandma knows how mom will
bristle as the kid goes on and on about what a wonderful time she had at
grandma's, and what a wonderful person grandma is.
Someone should take the kid to visit grandma, to make sure grandma
behaves, and to accurately chronicle what goes on during the visit. If
mom loathes grandma too much to perform this function herself, she should
appoint someone. If this is unacceptable to grandma, then grandma should
get bent. If grandma tries to play the girl against her mom, grandma
should be euthanized.
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On 24 Jun 2005 06:25:23 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>Someone should take the kid to visit grandma, to make sure grandma
>behaves, and to accurately chronicle what goes on during the visit. If
>mom loathes grandma too much to perform this function herself, she should
>appoint someone. If this is unacceptable to grandma, then grandma should
>get bent. If grandma tries to play the girl against her mom, grandma
>should be euthanized.
It sounds to me like it's the mother who is trying to "play the girl
against the grandmother" My opinion your's does not have to match.
| |
|
| On 24 Jun 2005 06:25:23 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>If the girl does anything that reminds grandma of a situation in which she
>was abusive to the girl's mother at the same age, grandma will slip into
>her role and perform it. Grandma's old. She can't be retrained.
Exactly - and in many cases (and certainly ours) grandma will use the
kids as a way to continue abusing mom.
>
>Also, don't abusive parents always try to be best pals with their
>childrens' children? It's just a way of getting back at their now adult
>offspring for daring to criticize them.
Yes, bingo.
> Grandma knows how mom will
>bristle as the kid goes on and on about what a wonderful time she had at
>grandma's, and what a wonderful person grandma is.
>
>Someone should take the kid to visit grandma, to make sure grandma
>behaves, and to accurately chronicle what goes on during the visit. If
>mom loathes grandma too much to perform this function herself, she should
>appoint someone. If this is unacceptable to grandma, then grandma should
>get bent. If grandma tries to play the girl against her mom, grandma
>should be euthanized.
With no other relationship would a parent consider allowing their
child to be alone with someone who had hurt the parent.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:41:51 -0700, Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>On 24 Jun 2005 06:25:23 GMT, Eric Cordian
><emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>
>
>It sounds to me like it's the mother who is trying to "play the girl
>against the grandmother" My opinion your's does not have to match.
Again, yours is the opinion of a woman who had her children taken away
or who were so damaged by you that they voluntarily chose to stay away
from you for years. In a couple of cases, they still won't talk to
you and you have no contact with some of your grandchildren.
It's interesting that the one who did re-embrace you is the one for
whom you designed and hosted porn starring her.
No one here is a perfect parent, and I certainly am not. But if I
were going to take advice on parenting from anyone, you would be the
very last person I would check with.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:27:25 -0400, "Panther"
<panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:338nb1db2mbui88e02ppb38bl7d58v6tut@4ax.com...
>to
>were
>abusers.
>the
>they
>
>They were 12 and 18, one going off to college and the other out working. My
>mother was not a major abuser, more manipulative and talking down to people.
>I stopped communication with her just before I moved to Vermont when the
>kids were in 1st and 3rd grade (actually didn't bother to tell her I had
>moved either). As far as I can remember my father's name just never was
>brought up and they never asked about him (although I suspect they heard a
>thing or two over the years at family gatherings as to how nasty he was).
What convinced you she would treat them any differently from how she
treated you and did she treat them well?
>nurture
>is
>so
>improve before I say it ~*~
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| windswept 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
I tend to agree with you here but I also feel a great deal of compassion for
this woman in what she is feeling. Its understandable and its also a trap.
The triangulation thing is so hard to not get caught up in, even without
activly taking part in it. It takes being constantly alert to the danger.
I agree with what you said about her stopping and assessing her feeings
about what is going on and what they are about and what they need to be
focusing on. She needs to detach from the interworkings of the other two.
Boy I've been there and I don't envy her.
If I had to give advice I can only very strongly state - keep you mind on
the present day and off the past and future. Keep your mind on the fact
that your mother is interacting with your daughter and not you and stick to
that. Do not interact with your mother through your daughter. Don't get in
that trap. Watch for manipulations to get you involved in the mix. Stay
alert to what your feelings are and why.
"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5oanb15i036tuhdsrvsvuu9215gf2mrq4c@4ax.com...
> On 24 Jun 2005 06:25:23 GMT, Eric Cordian
> <emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>
>
> It sounds to me like it's the mother who is trying to "play the girl
> against the grandmother" My opinion your's does not have to match.
>
--
For more information about this NNTP posting service, contact:
help@asarian-host.net -- for all info about our server.
If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 06:58:50 GMT, windswept
<windswept@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
>
>I tend to agree with you here but I also feel a great deal of compassion for
>this woman in what she is feeling. Its understandable and its also a trap.
Sympathy for the abusive grandma from a woman whose children had
hideous problems as a result of her own.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Vivian wrote:
> What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
>
> My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
> talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
> and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
> them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
> me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
> speaking to her again.
>
> I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
> hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
> what she did to me.
>
> I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
> grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
>
> What would you do?
>
> Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
> supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
if your mother is still as wonderful person as she was when you were young,
she'll show herself to your daughter in relatively short order. your
daughter will then believe her own eyes and ears much more readily than if
you tried to tell her yourself. if your mother has changed and is able to
control herself now, then your daughter will see a different person. that
would probably hurt to know, but if you try to convince your daughter
otherwise, then you'll end up labelled the evil one. your daughter is just
about an adult now, so you really won't be able to prevent her from getting
to know your mother if she really wants to.
protect your own relationship with your daughter and try not to think about
any relationship she might have or wish to have with your mother.
-- astri
| |
|
| "Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c49nb1dsmne490tmnr2ndnhrh6obk1004p@4ax.com...
> Vivian even said that she wasn't worried about her daughter getting
> hurt, it was more about Vivian being hurt because she Wants her
> daughter to hate her mother for the things that happend to her.
i didn't want my kids to hate my mother for the things that happened to me,
but they... well no, they don't hate her. they just don't like her much. i
don't like her much either, but i can't help wishing they liked her. you
can see there's some messed-up thinking behind that one. but i don't lay
that trip on them any more than vivian intends to lay her trip on her kid.
it's the right thing to do, no trips. kid goes out into life should be
unencumbered, not have your baggage to carry from the get-go.
so far as that's possible.
| |
| Eric Cordian 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote:
> It's interesting that the one who did re-embrace you is the one for
> whom you designed and hosted porn starring her.
Goodness. People here certainly have exciting lives.
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:05:14 GMT, Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net >
wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 23:41:51 -0700, Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>Again, yours is the opinion of a woman who had her children taken away
>or who were so damaged by you that they voluntarily chose to stay away
>from you for years. In a couple of cases, they still won't talk to
>you and you have no contact with some of your grandchildren.
Once again Lies. All lies. You need to get a life away's from me and
stop thinking you know everything there is to know about me. Because
you don't. You do this all the time. You do it to Sherrie, lying
about her discharge from the military, and so many others who don't
like you, who were once your friends until they saw who you really
were and left you high and dry, and when that happens you feel you
have a right to go around making up any lies you want to try and hurt
them.
The silly thing is Liz, that you aren't hurting anyone. My son and
daughter read these posts from you and simply shake their heads in
amassment that anyone can be as sick and vindictive as you are.
>It's interesting that the one who did re-embrace you is the one for
>whom you designed and hosted porn starring her.
Once again lies all lies.
>No one here is a perfect parent, and I certainly am not. But if I
>were going to take advice on parenting from anyone, you would be the
>very last person I would check with.
I'd be the last person you'd take advice from simply because you hate
me so much, and not because of the lies you tell yourself and others
about me.
>~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| PisaCake 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Kaitlyn, darlin, you are dealing with a woman whose head is so far up her
XXX she can spy on her teeth from her throat.
Leave her to her fantasies, it's really the best way to keep her from
XXXXing with someone in real life.
"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6benb1h972d9ukpaerob4qg0bbq2dq7hhv@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:05:14 GMT, Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net >
> wrote:
>
>
> Once again Lies. All lies. You need to get a life away's from me and
> stop thinking you know everything there is to know about me. Because
> you don't. You do this all the time. You do it to Sherrie, lying
> about her discharge from the military, and so many others who don't
> like you, who were once your friends until they saw who you really
> were and left you high and dry, and when that happens you feel you
> have a right to go around making up any lies you want to try and hurt
> them.
>
> The silly thing is Liz, that you aren't hurting anyone. My son and
> daughter read these posts from you and simply shake their heads in
> amassment that anyone can be as sick and vindictive as you are.
>
>
>
> Once again lies all lies.
>
>
> I'd be the last person you'd take advice from simply because you hate
> me so much, and not because of the lies you tell yourself and others
> about me.
>
>
>
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:58:58 -0700, "PisaCake" <sherrieg@adelphia.net>
wrote:
>Kaitlyn, darlin, you are dealing with a woman whose head is so far up her
>XXX she can spy on her teeth from her throat.
>
>Leave her to her fantasies, it's really the best way to keep her from
>XXXXing with someone in real life.
Oh I know Sherrie, I just felt a need this time to answer the little
Skunt, ya know? I've been way to quiet where she is concerned for far
to long and I just wanted her to know that I still know what a XXXXed
up mess of a human she is and call her on a few of her lies.
Funny thing is that she's put her own foot in her mouth a couple of
times this month and show her true colors all on her own. I did get a
big laugh out of that I will admit.
So how are you doing? I'm sure you are proud of Aaron and now he's
going into high school! Wow, my how time has flown eh?
I was talking to G today and told him I was going to miss him while
he's away in D.C. Ten whole days! He's going to have a wonderful
time, but I will miss having him hanging around here with me. They
grow up way to fast.
>"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:6benb1h972d9ukpaerob4qg0bbq2dq7hhv@4ax.com...
>
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:38:27 -0400, "cal" <cal1360@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:c49nb1dsmne490tmnr2ndnhrh6obk1004p@4ax.com...
>
>i didn't want my kids to hate my mother for the things that happened to me,
>but they... well no, they don't hate her. they just don't like her much. i
>don't like her much either, but i can't help wishing they liked her. you
>can see there's some messed-up thinking behind that one. but i don't lay
>that trip on them any more than vivian intends to lay her trip on her kid.
>it's the right thing to do, no trips. kid goes out into life should be
>unencumbered, not have your baggage to carry from the get-go.
>so far as that's possible.
I agree Cal that there should be no trips layed on Vivian's kid, but
she herself said
"I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother
might hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom
for what she did to me."
That sure seems like a trip to me, please explain to me your way of
seeing this and maybe I'll be able to see it too.
| |
|
| On 24 Jun 2005 07:42:09 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote in message
<42bbb951$0$2231$a726171b@news.hal-pc.org> the following:
>Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote:
>
>
>Goodness. People here certainly have exciting lives.
Yeah... someone's a drama queen, that's for sure. Not too
uncommon, from what I've seen, for someone who hates
themselves and their life. All that drama is an escape...
and everything's a drama... if it ain't, they'll create it.
| |
| Panther 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:m5cnb15n1alnphf3td3oofsmkqi3ccb9m2@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:27:25 -0400, "Panther"
> <panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
stop[vbcol=seagreen]
mistreated[vbcol=seagreen]
want[vbcol=seagreen]
relationship[vbcol=seagreen]
My[vbcol=seagreen]
people.[vbcol=seagreen]
a[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> What convinced you she would treat them any differently from how she
> treated you and did she treat them well?
>
My mother tends to treat them pretty well. She would do things like take
them out for their birthday as a special thing and then talk the whole time
about my sisters girl. Cute stuff like that. She's rather shallow and
really isn't interested in anyone elses news or conversation. Do things
like pump them for information so she can gossip and such. The girls were
pretty well versed in her behaviors and would enjoy the meal or whatever and
roll their eyes at the rest. I've always been quite open with them even when
younger and when something upset them I'd let them know that it was not
something 'they' did so their self esteem in that regard was pretty sturdy.
I came from a matriach line that was pretty consistent with certain
behaviors. i.e. someone was always the 'bad' guy that could be dumbed on,
always my mother had to be upset with someone etc. I was the scapegoat
growing up and I suspect that I misplayed my role once I had the girls
because the girls were very well behaved so there wasn't much she could
complain about. The girls were pretty savvy as they grew up when it came to
family of origin dynamics and fortunately they also had that quick Irish
humor. They seemed to know how to handle her and get their subtle quips to
laugh about between themselves. She's fine with them now and also is fine
with me. She's finally learned to respect certain boundaries and for the
last few years we've gotten along better than we ever had. But then I know
her limitations and don't expect more. We can have laughs together at this
point and that's what we focus on. She's in her 80's
Now my father was a different story which is a bit more complicated. I had
stopped talking to him by the time I was 17 and had no contact with him. It
wasn't until my early 40's that I was able to resolve the childhood beatings
and bruises so the girls were never exposed to him growing up. I did speak
with my father when I was around 40 and that lasted for a very short time.
They only met him once at that point in a group situation.
might[vbcol=seagreen]
adult[vbcol=seagreen]
her[vbcol=seagreen]
There[vbcol=seagreen]
daughters[vbcol=seagreen]
string[vbcol=seagreen]
done[vbcol=seagreen]
can[vbcol=seagreen]
be[vbcol=seagreen]
won't[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On 24 Jun 2005 07:42:09 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote:
>
>
>Goodness. People here certainly have exciting lives.
Only in Liz's twisted mind.
| |
|
| "Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dnfnb152rj7p1i358q9e388k30l9kpglre@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:38:27 -0400, "cal" <cal1360@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I agree Cal that there should be no trips layed on Vivian's kid, but
> she herself said
>
> "I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother
> might hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom
> for what she did to me."
>
> That sure seems like a trip to me, please explain to me your way of
> seeing this and maybe I'll be able to see it too.
we can't help wanting what we want, and there's no trip in that as such.
trips are in what you do and what you say, not in how you feel. and it
sounded to me like vivian knows her mind and is all set to say and do the
right things, or at least not to say and do the wrong ones.
she comes here for support about how that hurts, that's great. she gets my
empathy for the hurt, and my respect for the rest.
like she said, it's her problem. implicit in that: "it's not my kid's
problem and i'm not going to make it her problem. but it's a problem."
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:39:36 -0400, "cal" <cal1360@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:dnfnb152rj7p1i358q9e388k30l9kpglre@4ax.com...
>
>we can't help wanting what we want, and there's no trip in that as such.
>trips are in what you do and what you say, not in how you feel. and it
>sounded to me like vivian knows her mind and is all set to say and do the
>right things, or at least not to say and do the wrong ones.
>
>she comes here for support about how that hurts, that's great. she gets my
>empathy for the hurt, and my respect for the rest.
>
>like she said, it's her problem. implicit in that: "it's not my kid's
>problem and i'm not going to make it her problem. but it's a problem."
OK I see that you are saying. I guess I was worried that she would
make it her daughters problem by telling her she could not go and
visit her and for the wrong reason to boot.
Thanks for showing me your way of seeing it.
She has my empathy too, don't get me wrong I told her I knew it hurts
I understand that, I was just concerend on the other area too.
Thanks Cal for taking the time here.
Kaitlyn
| |
|
| By any chance, does the Sk stand for Scuzzy?
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:04:45 -0700, Kaitlyn
<ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<acfnb1d4gdhfhstgbmnsl0jj01alf5dapo@4ax.com> the following:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:58:58 -0700, "PisaCake" <sherrieg@adelphia.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>Oh I know Sherrie, I just felt a need this time to answer the little
>Skunt, ya know? I've been way to quiet where she is concerned for far
>to long and I just wanted her to know that I still know what a XXXXed
>up mess of a human she is and call her on a few of her lies.
>
>Funny thing is that she's put her own foot in her mouth a couple of
>times this month and show her true colors all on her own. I did get a
>big laugh out of that I will admit.
>
>So how are you doing? I'm sure you are proud of Aaron and now he's
>going into high school! Wow, my how time has flown eh?
>
>I was talking to G today and told him I was going to miss him while
>he's away in D.C. Ten whole days! He's going to have a wonderful
>time, but I will miss having him hanging around here with me. They
>grow up way to fast.
>
>
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:00:19 +0800, James
<James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>By any chance, does the Sk stand for Scuzzy?
If by SK you are talking about Skunt? For me it's a cross between
Skank and Cunt.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 01:04:45 -0700, Kaitlyn
><ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
><acfnb1d4gdhfhstgbmnsl0jj01alf5dapo@4ax.com> the following:
>
| |
| windswept 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
oh oh James.... you had to ask. :-)
"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ngjnb1hh0gb75trs4h6ku1jcdbfns7qq4a@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:00:19 +0800, James
> <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>
>
> If by SK you are talking about Skunt? For me it's a cross between
> Skank and Cunt.
>
her[vbcol=seagreen]
If[vbcol=seagreen]
grandma[vbcol=seagreen]
away[vbcol=seagreen]
away[vbcol=seagreen]
won't[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
--
For more information about this NNTP posting service, contact:
help@asarian-host.net -- for all info about our server.
If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
https://asarian-host.net/cgi-bin/signup.cgi
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 02:11:27 -0700, Kaitlyn
<ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<ngjnb1hh0gb75trs4h6ku1jcdbfns7qq4a@4ax.com> the following:
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 17:00:19 +0800, James
><James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>
>
>If by SK you are talking about Skunt?
Yeap. Knew you'd pick up on that.
>For me it's a cross between
>Skank and Cunt.
>
Ah... Skanky... Ok. Thanks.
[vbcol=seagreen]
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 09:20:40 GMT, windswept
<windswept@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<69ddeb06c0b946e57df4c.1c6fb65fc5715@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>oh oh James.... you had to ask. :-)
>
Well... I didn't know... and it stood out cause I didn't
know... so I asked. Just trying to take every opportunity
to increase my vocabulary, doncha know.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>"Kaitlyn" <ktlynkait@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ngjnb1hh0gb75trs4h6ku1jcdbfns7qq4a@4ax.com...
>her
>If
>grandma
>away
>away
>won't
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 21:22:21 -1000, astri <astri@lava.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Jun 2005, Vivian wrote:
>
>
>if your mother is still as wonderful person as she was when you were young,
>she'll show herself to your daughter in relatively short order. your
>daughter will then believe her own eyes and ears much more readily than if
>you tried to tell her yourself. if your mother has changed and is able to
>control herself now, then your daughter will see a different person. that
>would probably hurt to know, but if you try to convince your daughter
>otherwise, then you'll end up labelled the evil one. your daughter is just
>about an adult now, so you really won't be able to prevent her from getting
>to know your mother if she really wants to.
>
>protect your own relationship with your daughter and try not to think about
>any relationship she might have or wish to have with your mother.
At eighteen, that's all you can do. Being put in the position of
being the bad guy is a toughy when you are dealing with a shit grandma
and a kid who wants to love her, though.
>
>-- astri
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On 24 Jun 2005 07:42:09 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote:
>
>
>Goodness. People here certainly have exciting lives.
Oh you missed it. Kaitlyn's daughter joined a webblog topsite list
called 'clix'. She had a blog that was what - six pages long or so
and featured pics of her in extremely revealing little negligees.
That wasn't so bad. She's an adult and it's her body and she can do
what she wants, including flash it all over the net if she likes. I
felt sorry for her, though. Not because she was a lousy person but
because she felt that was the best way to get attention. I feel bad
for any woman who feels that way.
What upset a lot of people is that Kaitlyn, good mom that she is, not
only hosted the pictures on her own site but designed banner ads
featuring daughter in spread leg, thin panty clad shots with the
tag-line "touch my clix".
When there was something of a controversy about it, Kaitlyn made sure
that her daughter, who otherwise would not have known, saw every
single post written. The whole thing was just so sleazy - that Kaitlyn
hosted and posted the pics, that she designed the porno ad banners
featuring her kids crotch, that she asked her daughter to join a flame
war.
Mom of the year material. It bugged some people, others thought it
was too cool and there's probably no surprise to how people fell on
the spectrum.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:48:23 -0700, Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 07:05:14 GMT, Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net >
>wrote:
>
>
>Once again Lies.
Not bothering to read this, either. It's all true. A whole bunch of
people here saw her 'blog', saw the pictures and your ads for the
'blog'. Maybe you don't remember because it was one of your 'alters'
who did it all.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:31:22 -0400, "Panther"
<panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:m5cnb15n1alnphf3td3oofsmkqi3ccb9m2@4ax.com...
>stop
>mistreated
>want
>relationship
>My
>people.
>a
>
>My mother tends to treat them pretty well. She would do things like take
>them out for their birthday as a special thing and then talk the whole time
>about my sisters girl. Cute stuff like that. She's rather shallow and
>really isn't interested in anyone elses news or conversation. Do things
>like pump them for information so she can gossip and such. The girls were
>pretty well versed in her behaviors and would enjoy the meal or whatever and
>roll their eyes at the rest. I've always been quite open with them even when
>younger and when something upset them I'd let them know that it was not
>something 'they' did so their self esteem in that regard was pretty sturdy.
Did she show them any love?
>I came from a matriach line that was pretty consistent with certain
>behaviors. i.e. someone was always the 'bad' guy that could be dumbed on,
>always my mother had to be upset with someone etc. I was the scapegoat
>growing up
So was I.
> and I suspect that I misplayed my role once I had the girls
>because the girls were very well behaved so there wasn't much she could
>complain about. The girls were pretty savvy as they grew up when it came to
>family of origin dynamics and fortunately they also had that quick Irish
>humor. They seemed to know how to handle her and get their subtle quips to
>laugh about between themselves. She's fine with them now and also is fine
>with me. She's finally learned to respect certain boundaries and for the
>last few years we've gotten along better than we ever had. But then I know
>her limitations and don't expect more. We can have laughs together at this
>point and that's what we focus on. She's in her 80's
>
>Now my father was a different story which is a bit more complicated. I had
>stopped talking to him by the time I was 17 and had no contact with him. It
>wasn't until my early 40's that I was able to resolve the childhood beatings
>and bruises so the girls were never exposed to him growing up. I did speak
>with my father when I was around 40 and that lasted for a very short time.
>They only met him once at that point in a group situation.
One of the hardest and best things I did was remove myself from that
situation - the family thing. It took me a long time to do it and I
wish I had been able to do it when they were younger.
>might
>adult
>her
>There
>daughters
>string
>done
>can
>be
>won't
>improve before I say it ~*~
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
|
"Vivian" <laura@hell.com> wrote in message
news:1119588708.434832.79600@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> What do you do when your child wants to friends with your abuser?
>
> My daughter, 17, has recently been in contact with my mother, and is
> talking about visiting with her. My mother abused and neglected me,
> and allowed people to hurt me very badly when I was too young to stop
> them. My daughter knows, on a basic level, that my mother mistreated
> me. I haven't spoken to my mother in 3 years and don't plan on ever
> speaking to her again.
>
> I have to be honest with myself - the issue is not that my mother might
> hurt my daughter. My problem is that I want her to hate my mom for
> what she did to me.
She's old enough to make her own decision about it. That's my opinion.
>
> I KNOW I should stay out of it and let her have a relationship with her
> grandmother, but dammit it HURTS.
Just because it hurts doesn't mean you have to bend to the pain. The right
thing isn't always the easy thing.
Jean
>
> What would you do?
>
> Oh yeah... hi, my name's Vivian. I just joined. I'll do my best to be
> supportive when I'm not feeling so down. Thanks for understanding.
>
| |
|
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:cv7nb11bahuu7v4u57b7pfg26vc82cn45r@4ax.com...
> On 24 Jun 2005 05:16:48 GMT, Eric Cordian
> <emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>
>
> Exactly. If anyone else hurts us, we don't let them around our kids.
> Why is it always assumed that we should re-think that when it comes to
> relatives?
The girl is 17, not 7. I'd agree with you if she was not a young adult.
Jean
>
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
> improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| gardenia 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Liz wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:48:23 -0700, Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> Not bothering to read this, either. It's all true. A whole bunch of
> people here saw her 'blog', saw the pictures and your ads for the
> 'blog'. Maybe you don't remember because it was one of your 'alters'
> who did it all.
A. I saw the blog
B. I saw Kaitlyn's posts here and on her blog
C. She has store-bought tits she's proud of.. Big XXXXing Deal
>
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison
> won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
|
"gardenia" <patgaz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fBXue.80882$PR6.14362@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Liz wrote:
>
>
> A. I saw the blog
Me too.
>
> B. I saw Kaitlyn's posts here and on her blog
Me too.
>
> C. She has store-bought tits she's proud of.. Big XXXXing Deal
That too.
I wouldn't want my kid doing it but what the hell, I guess someone's gotta.
Jean
>
>
>
>
>
| |
| Kaitlyn 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 15:03:33 GMT, Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net >
wrote:
>On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 00:48:23 -0700, Kaitlyn <ktlynkait@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>Not bothering to read this, either.
Of course now God forbid you read the truth and except it for once in
your life. Now I'm done with you again for awhile.
| |
| gardenia 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Luna wrote:
> "gardenia" <patgaz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:fBXue.80882$PR6.14362@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>
> Me too.
>
> Me too.
>
> That too.
>
> I wouldn't want my kid doing it but what the hell, I guess someone's
> gotta.
Me either.. but then there are "worse" things they could do.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Jean
>
| |
| windswept 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
I saw the blog too - and I agree - big freakin deal.
"gardenia" <patgaz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fBXue.80882$PR6.14362@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> Liz wrote:
>
>
> A. I saw the blog
>
> B. I saw Kaitlyn's posts here and on her blog
>
> C. She has store-bought tits she's proud of.. Big XXXXing Deal
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:07:27 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:cv7nb11bahuu7v4u57b7pfg26vc82cn45r@4ax.com...
>
>The girl is 17, not 7. I'd agree with you if she was not a young adult.
When they make the age of consent 17, we'll talk about 17. Right now,
it's eighteen and as long as I can exercise my control to keep my mom
out of her life, I will. After that, I have to allow her to make her
own choice.
It's really *hard* to let your kid go into a situation where you know
major mind games are played. It's harder when you know that one of
the prizes is your credibility. I don't know if Vivian's situation is
like mine, but my mother continually tried to hurt my relationship
with my daughter. In my situation, one of the hardest things was
having to trust my kid to know the truth. That's hard for me, to
trust someone to see the best in me and know the truth about me.
The hardest thing, though, was having to separate Jen from my mother,
because Jen loved her. But she was hurting her - she made promises
she didn't keep, never returned a phone call, e mail or letter and
left Jen continually wondering why she didn't care enough to respond.
That put me in the position my mother wanted - being the bad guy. She
said to Jen that I wasn't going to let them have a relationship - one
time she refused to hand her to me when she was little. One very
memorable time, she tried to have the kids taken away. It was a
constant, bloody power play.
It was a bad situation getting worse all the time. I had to be the
bad guy/sensible mom and remove Barbara from the picture. I protected
my kids, protected my relationship with them and told them as much of
the truth as was appropriate (I did not point out that my mother made
me her sexual surrogate, for example). I gave them everything I could
and had to trust after that.
If Jen goes to Barbara and gets hurt again - and it will happen,
because that's what the woman does - I'll try to lessen the damage.
It's easier to save your kid's psyche from an abusive grandparent than
it is to save your own from your mother, you know?
>
>Jean
>
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:41:37 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"gardenia" <patgaz@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:fBXue.80882$PR6.14362@tornado.texas.rr.com...
>
>Me too.
>
>Me too.
>
>That too.
>
>I wouldn't want my kid doing it but what the hell, I guess someone's gotta.
Of course, no one got upset about V posing for pictures, though, as we
have both pointed out, it isn't a choice we would want our own kids to
make. I love my kids and hope they believe in themselves enough to
value more about them than the size of their tits. I want them to
believe that the best of themselves to put out there is so much more
than their tits.
The issue was mommy hosting and designing said daughter's porn. I
don't care if V was 104 when Kaitlyn did it - it's sick shit. Call me
old-fashioned, call me a prude. No WAY would I host nipple or beaver
shots of my kid and design banners telling people to touch their clix.
>Jean
>
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| Kaitlyn, you're a liar. You have always been a liar, you will always
be a big fat liar and anyone who believes you about *anything* after
all the times you have lied and swore you didn't then said you did is
a fool.
You are a sick, sick woman who changes identities the way clean people
change underwear. Your 'truth' changes with whichever 'alter' you are
being at the time. You take on the lives and experiences of other
people and claim them as your own and honestly, if you ever know from
one day to the next what day it is without having to check, I'd be
amazed. You literally have no idea from one day to the next what
truth will be yours that day, Kaitlyn, goth, lacy, etc ad nauseous.
You're done with me again? Didn't you say that earlier today? And
how many times over the years when you called me liar and then said I
wasn't lying after all? If you're done with me, stop writing about me
in your blog. Stop telling people you lived my life and get your own.
Smooches.
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:t29pb1t9souj8v0jonuo6n1qq7dd8ppoug@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 13:07:27 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> When they make the age of consent 17, we'll talk about 17. Right now,
> it's eighteen and as long as I can exercise my control to keep my mom
> out of her life, I will. After that, I have to allow her to make her
> own choice.
Don't you want to be in there, though? That's always been my motto. It seems so
abrupt and arbitrary, 18th birthday, go for it.
>
> It's really *hard* to let your kid go into a situation where you know
> major mind games are played. It's harder when you know that one of
> the prizes is your credibility. I don't know if Vivian's situation is
> like mine, but my mother continually tried to hurt my relationship
> with my daughter. In my situation, one of the hardest things was
> having to trust my kid to know the truth. That's hard for me, to
> trust someone to see the best in me and know the truth about me.
>
> The hardest thing, though, was having to separate Jen from my mother,
> because Jen loved her. But she was hurting her - she made promises
> she didn't keep, never returned a phone call, e mail or letter and
> left Jen continually wondering why she didn't care enough to respond.
> That put me in the position my mother wanted - being the bad guy. She
> said to Jen that I wasn't going to let them have a relationship - one
> time she refused to hand her to me when she was little. One very
> memorable time, she tried to have the kids taken away. It was a
> constant, bloody power play.
>
> It was a bad situation getting worse all the time. I had to be the
> bad guy/sensible mom and remove Barbara from the picture. I protected
> my kids, protected my relationship with them and told them as much of
> the truth as was appropriate (I did not point out that my mother made
> me her sexual surrogate, for example). I gave them everything I could
> and had to trust after that.
>
> If Jen goes to Barbara and gets hurt again - and it will happen,
> because that's what the woman does - I'll try to lessen the damage.
> It's easier to save your kid's psyche from an abusive grandparent than
> it is to save your own from your mother, you know?
Yeah Liz. I do sympathize with your stance on this.
I guess i got lucky in these ways: my parents moved far far away so contact was
quite minimal and - they actually changed drastically. I've had to learn some
hard lessons though. For example, because my parents aren't really bonded to my
kids - mainly cuz they don't know them - I can't tell them about the kerfuffles
that come up. As is my conversationally open nature, I'd been open with them in
the past - and that resulted in them deciding not to send D. a birthday present
one year because they were 'mad at her for the way she was treating me'. Oh
brother.
Diana has every reason for the odd explosion. She has said to me, "you have
hurt me more than anyone in my life" and I believe her. My parents think that's
unacceptable because it's in the "past". I don't. There is no past in a
species that has the ability to remember. They punished her for it. I have a
big mouth.
My kids were not disciplined or controlled much by either their father or me.
It might sound insane to you but - they've never had a curfew, really. We
didn't spend much time doing homework with them either (after grade 10 it's all
greek to me anyways). We knew they were drinking by 17 and we didn't come down
on them for it. Two out of three of them smoke the odd joint - on the weekends,
party animals.
Then again. They've all been chauffeured up the wazoo. The 18 year old
practically never takes a bus. The 20 year old has put more dents in my car then
.... god. The 16 year old is driven to and from work when buses are completely
feasible. He's in hockey and football and all of his games are attended by one
or both of us (awkwardly at opposite ends of the field, gee, that's fun!). We
are both into cooking for them, their father has exposed them to a wide variety
of local political figures (interesting people). Me, I just have to rely on my
rapier wit to get 'em talking but that's been okay.
They do what they want and it's turned out that what they want is to do well.
All three of them seem to be okay. The eldest drinks too much and parties too
hard but he also made the honour roll while working full time and paying his
complete tuition.
The middle one has the capacity to get extremely angry but she has a million
friends, works full time and is heading for university in the fall.
The baby has been babied, he's a bit ambition challenged compard to his sibs but
he's got an over 80 average, loves rap, has a bazillion friends and the easiest
smile on the planet.
Sorry to go on this long. I just think the more you can let your children make
their own decisions and not loom over them with what you think is "best" the
better it is for their confidence and future ability to cope, on their own.
Jean
>
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
> improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:2k9pb11p9ap8oge06n07hl8057ldebm9fd@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 14:41:37 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Of course, no one got upset about V posing for pictures, though, as we
> have both pointed out, it isn't a choice we would want our own kids to
> make. I love my kids and hope they believe in themselves enough to
> value more about them than the size of their tits. I want them to
> believe that the best of themselves to put out there is so much more
> than their tits.
>
> The issue was mommy hosting and designing said daughter's porn. I
> don't care if V was 104 when Kaitlyn did it - it's sick shit. Call me
> old-fashioned, call me a prude. No WAY would I host nipple or beaver
> shots of my kid and design banners telling people to touch their clix.
Well, I'd be shocked if D. decided to do something like that. I mean, it's
always been, you're smart and you're going to go to university and make a
difference.
Being the 'cool mom' that designed my daughter's soft porn site was never
really, you know, a goal. 
I would go so far as saying that if my daughter ever felt the need to get fake
boobs or post pics of herself on the internet, I'd be devastated and very, very
sad. I can't even imagine D. doing anything like that, it's just not something
that would ever occur to her.
Jean
>
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
> improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:09:42 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:t29pb1t9souj8v0jonuo6n1qq7dd8ppoug@4ax.com...
>
>Don't you want to be in there, though? That's always been my motto. It seems so
>abrupt and arbitrary, 18th birthday, go for it.
Oh god, of course I want to. But at eighteen, I have to carefully
balance my battles - if I continue to rein her in too hard, she'll
bolt. I have to allow her certain freedoms so that when I say to her
'you live in my home and you will live by my rules' she won't be so
ready to say ok, I'll move.
Jen still needs time to mellow. I'd like to keep her mellowing at home
as long as I can.
>
>Yeah Liz. I do sympathize with your stance on this.
>
>I guess i got lucky in these ways: my parents moved far far away so contact was
>quite minimal and - they actually changed drastically. I've had to learn some
>hard lessons though. For example, because my parents aren't really bonded to my
>kids - mainly cuz they don't know them - I can't tell them about the kerfuffles
>that come up. As is my conversationally open nature, I'd been open with them in
>the past - and that resulted in them deciding not to send D. a birthday present
>one year because they were 'mad at her for the way she was treating me'. Oh
>brother.
>
>Diana has every reason for the odd explosion. She has said to me, "you have
>hurt me more than anyone in my life" and I believe her. My parents think that's
>unacceptable because it's in the "past". I don't.
I agree. I know I have made mistakes and if my kids remember them, I
have to deal with that.
>There is no past in a
>species that has the ability to remember. They punished her for it. I have a
>big mouth.
I don't tell my parents anything about how I feel about anything. As
far as they know, my children are perfect beings who have never made a
single, solitary misstep.
>My kids were not disciplined or controlled much by either their father or me.
>It might sound insane to you but - they've never had a curfew, really. We
>didn't spend much time doing homework with them either (after grade 10 it's all
>greek to me anyways). We knew they were drinking by 17 and we didn't come down
>on them for it. Two out of three of them smoke the odd joint - on the weekends,
>party animals.
>
>Then again. They've all been chauffeured up the wazoo. The 18 year old
>practically never takes a bus. The 20 year old has put more dents in my car then
>... god. The 16 year old is driven to and from work when buses are completely
>feasible. He's in hockey and football and all of his games are attended by one
>or both of us (awkwardly at opposite ends of the field, gee, that's fun!). We
>are both into cooking for them, their father has exposed them to a wide variety
>of local political figures (interesting people). Me, I just have to rely on my
>rapier wit to get 'em talking but that's been okay.
>
>They do what they want and it's turned out that what they want is to do well.
>All three of them seem to be okay. The eldest drinks too much and parties too
>hard but he also made the honour roll while working full time and paying his
>complete tuition.
>
>The middle one has the capacity to get extremely angry but she has a million
>friends, works full time and is heading for university in the fall.
>
>The baby has been babied, he's a bit ambition challenged compard to his sibs but
>he's got an over 80 average, loves rap, has a bazillion friends and the easiest
>smile on the planet.
>
>Sorry to go on this long. I just think the more you can let your children make
>their own decisions and not loom over them with what you think is "best" the
>better it is for their confidence and future ability to cope, on their own.
You have a point - I definitely worry that I haven't let them deal
with more mistakes. That's a constant worry, that I loved them too
much.
>
>Jean
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:17:39 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:2k9pb11p9ap8oge06n07hl8057ldebm9fd@4ax.com...
>
>Well, I'd be shocked if D. decided to do something like that. I mean, it's
>always been, you're smart and you're going to go to university and make a
>difference.
I've had this thing with the girls since they were little. Which is
better, I say, smart or beautiful? They learned to answer smart.
It's great to be beautiful, I say, but smart lasts forever.
>Being the 'cool mom' that designed my daughter's soft porn site was never
>really, you know, a goal.
I managed to be a 'cool' mom without setting up porn featuring my
kids, too. I'm the mom all the other kids think is cool. My kids
secretly think I'm cool, but they would die before saying it. On the
other hand, I am the one who has to say the hard things - like stop
feeling sorry for yourself, others have it worse, suck it up and get
on with it.
>I would go so far as saying that if my daughter ever felt the need to get fake
>boobs or post pics of herself on the internet, I'd be devastated and very, very
>sad. I can't even imagine D. doing anything like that, it's just not something
>that would ever occur to her.
I would hate it if the girls did it. I would - I would feel so sad
for them. I don't imagine it is something they will do, but I would
worry deeply about their self image and what this meant and how I
could help. Then I'd suck it up and try to be supportive.
If a woman has small breasts, I can see why she would want to - in a
society where women are still judged by their looks, it can be a big
deal. It can be the difference between getting a job or not. In a
society where women are judged by their looks, having small breasts
scan feel like being disfigured, I bet.
My kids inherited my big boobs. And my smarts.
>Jean
>
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| Eric Cordian 2005-06-27, 8:53 am |
| Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote:
> Kaitlyn, you're a liar. You have always been a liar, you will always
> be a big fat liar and anyone who believes you about *anything* after
> all the times you have lied and swore you didn't then said you did is
> a fool.
> You are a sick, sick woman who changes identities the way clean people
> change underwear. ...
Prescription run out?
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
| |
|
| On 25 Jun 2005 02:01:48 GMT, Eric Cordian
<emc@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote:
>
>
>
>Prescription run out?
Nah. They letting me use the computer here at the hospital.
Did you hear that??
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
| Panther 2005-06-27, 8:54 am |
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:cvppb1tg29ibaarqlpmle4c8o35lvse0lo@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:12:09 -0400, "Panther"
> <panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
abuser?[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
neglected[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
on[vbcol=seagreen]
they[vbcol=seagreen]
with[vbcol=seagreen]
possibility[vbcol=seagreen]
that.[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
when[vbcol=seagreen]
I[vbcol=seagreen]
never[vbcol=seagreen]
take[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
things[vbcol=seagreen]
whatever[vbcol=seagreen]
even[vbcol=seagreen]
not[vbcol=seagreen]
they[vbcol=seagreen]
differentuate[vbcol=seagreen]
my[vbcol=seagreen]
from[vbcol=seagreen]
in[vbcol=seagreen]
of[vbcol=seagreen]
was[vbcol=seagreen]
they[vbcol=seagreen]
hope[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> There's that. It's a big deal and I'll have that, too.
>
Yes. And it's a VERY big deal. Generations have gone into what happened to
us. We, for some reason, changed the tide. Lots of victims appeared to
have said NO MORE. Perhaps they killed off the weaker ones, I don't know.
But we survived. We made changes and our children are better off as a
result. We may not have been perfect, but we did make a difference (our
generation). Despite our flaws, Kudos to us! And I sincerely believe that.
> But does that mean I was good enough, did a good enough job? I have
> smart, funny, ethical and empathic children. Will they be able to
> survive in the world? Did I give them that? Did I give them
> everything I meant to, tried to, wanted to? Did I manage to impart as
> little of my bad stuff as I could?
>
You know, yeah, I suspect that we imparted some of our "bad stuff" but it's
not an iota of the bad stuff that has gone on for generations that we lived
through. I think that we made a huge difference over the last 20 years
(what's that? two-three generations?) I really believe that as a result
of our pain, our children will never suffer what we did. Will some? Yes
some will but not through the silence we did. Our generations did make a
big difference. No one can solve all lifes problems but I think we made a
major dent in child abuse. I don't think that culture will be the same
since our generations. Eric may complain about the Sex Abuse generations
but that is a compliment as far as I'm concerned :-)
We can never give our children everything they may have wanted. We're
human. And hey, as they have their own children they may see that some of
our decisions were based in love and nurturing. Nurtureing doesn't mean
we're always right, it just means we tried to the best of our ability. Did
we make some mistakes? Sure! and guess what. Ever parent does, it's
human. Our own children will make some mistakes too, but what we try to
impart is that regardless of that we loved them and did our best regardless
of what our circumstances were. Circumstances are funny things. Sometimes
they are overwehlmingly difficult and somestimes they are easy times.
> I want to be more than a better mom. I want more than being a good
> mom. I want to be a perfect one.
>
From what I have seen I have yet to meet too many people who have not done
better than their own family of origin here. Some better some even keel but
few worse.
on,[vbcol=seagreen]
scapegoat[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Sucked. Sucked to be us. Not sucks.
>
ed, s., hummmmmmmmmm <G> But yeah, I'll vote ed too :-)
failed.[vbcol=seagreen]
could[vbcol=seagreen]
came[vbcol=seagreen]
Irish[vbcol=seagreen]
quips[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
I[vbcol=seagreen]
him.[vbcol=seagreen]
do[vbcol=seagreen]
volumne[vbcol=seagreen]
(sp?)[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Thanks. I've always tried to think, when dealing with the kids, is
> this how I want them to treat their own children? It's been as much a
> guide for me as anything else.
I think it's a good guide. I know at times I didn't live up to it. But for
the majority of the time I did. From the info I get back from the kids they
really do seem to appreciate what I did impart to them. That is not to say
that at the time they didn't hate my guts <G> It really is nice when they
have children of their own and they do see that your heart was what counted
even when you made some wrong decisions periodically. But overall they know
that I love them, protected them the best I could and that I had a sense of
humor at times that one would want to have torn there hair out as the
alternative. And, yes, I can't wait until THEIR kids get to be THAT
adorable age! bwahahahaha
| |
| Panther 2005-06-27, 8:54 am |
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:a88ob1ljii37d9kgend1vhng5eksd5ohaj@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 04:31:22 -0400, "Panther"
> <panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
is[vbcol=seagreen]
me,[vbcol=seagreen]
ever[vbcol=seagreen]
They[vbcol=seagreen]
that[vbcol=seagreen]
while[vbcol=seagreen]
working.[vbcol=seagreen]
the[vbcol=seagreen]
had[vbcol=seagreen]
was[vbcol=seagreen]
heard[vbcol=seagreen]
was).[vbcol=seagreen]
time[vbcol=seagreen]
were[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
when[vbcol=seagreen]
sturdy.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Did she show them any love?
To the best of her capability, yes I think so. But I also think that they
saw a different level of love and concern from me. They could differentuate
(sp?) We did laugh at her limitations on occasion. One thing I see with my
daughters is that they did learn a different level of love and concern from
me so they did have something to compare. If I ever did anything right in
my life it was to impart different values on my daughters. The bond was
every close from an early age and that far surpassed the general levels of
normal development stages. If anything they seem to feel they would be
'even more protective'. To me, that means I did an excellent job :-) I was
very protective and I was able, I guess, to be subtle about that. i.e. they
felt they had freedom but they were not aware as to just how much, as a
mother, I let go to allow them a sense of freedom. I am really very very
proud of how they turned out :-) That is something that no one can take
from me despite, at times, the heart ache of being silent wrought. My hope
is that when their children are older and in the testing phases they will
learn from it and recognize it. :-) At any rate when I die I know that I
did so much far better than my parents did with me.
>
>
> So was I.
>
yeah, sucks to be us :-/ Thing is that in retrospect it taught me to be a
watcher of patterns and that has done me well thoughout my later years.
Ooops they goofed in what they did try to teach me and subsequently failed.
Guess they found the "wrong" victim <EG>
to[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
fine[vbcol=seagreen]
know[vbcol=seagreen]
this[vbcol=seagreen]
had[vbcol=seagreen]
It[vbcol=seagreen]
beatings[vbcol=seagreen]
speak[vbcol=seagreen]
time.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> One of the hardest and best things I did was remove myself from that
> situation - the family thing. It took me a long time to do it and I
> wish I had been able to do it when they were younger.
yes me too. And don't sell yourself short......it was extreme courage to do
that. Not all members of the family can do that. Sometimes it takes
several generations. In your own family you may not feel that you have
done enough. Sometimes the effects will take a few generations but the
source can be you. It doesn't matter what the progress in terms of volumne
is concerned. Frankly within a family the greatest onus (sp?) is on the
earliest generation to make that beginning start of a change. What you
accomplish within you own family can be the start of an even greater
progress within your own children. :-) Think of the generations of
stagnation (sp?) that have occurred before you. You are the impetus (sp?)
of that change. Kudos!
>
for[vbcol=seagreen]
with[vbcol=seagreen]
is[vbcol=seagreen]
you[vbcol=seagreen]
to[vbcol=seagreen]
understanding.[vbcol=seagreen]
won't[vbcol=seagreen]
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:12:09 -0400, "Panther"
<panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:a88ob1ljii37d9kgend1vhng5eksd5ohaj@4ax.com...
>is
>me,
>ever
>They
>that
>while
>working.
>the
>had
>was
>heard
>was).
>time
>were
>and
>when
>sturdy.
>
>To the best of her capability, yes I think so. But I also think that they
>saw a different level of love and concern from me. They could differentuate
>(sp?) We did laugh at her limitations on occasion. One thing I see with my
>daughters is that they did learn a different level of love and concern from
>me so they did have something to compare. If I ever did anything right in
>my life it was to impart different values on my daughters. The bond was
>every close from an early age and that far surpassed the general levels of
>normal development stages. If anything they seem to feel they would be
>'even more protective'. To me, that means I did an excellent job :-) I was
>very protective and I was able, I guess, to be subtle about that. i.e. they
>felt they had freedom but they were not aware as to just how much, as a
>mother, I let go to allow them a sense of freedom. I am really very very
>proud of how they turned out :-) That is something that no one can take
>from me despite, at times, the heart ache of being silent wrought. My hope
>is that when their children are older and in the testing phases they will
>learn from it and recognize it. :-) At any rate when I die I know that I
>did so much far better than my parents did with me.
There's that. It's a big deal and I'll have that, too.
But does that mean I was good enough, did a good enough job? I have
smart, funny, ethical and empathic children. Will they be able to
survive in the world? Did I give them that? Did I give them
everything I meant to, tried to, wanted to? Did I manage to impart as
little of my bad stuff as I could?
I want to be more than a better mom. I want more than being a good
mom. I want to be a perfect one.
>
>yeah, sucks to be us :-/
Sucked. Sucked to be us. Not sucks.
>Thing is that in retrospect it taught me to be a
>watcher of patterns and that has done me well thoughout my later years.
>Ooops they goofed in what they did try to teach me and subsequently failed.
>Guess they found the "wrong" victim <EG>
>
>
>to
>to
>fine
>know
>this
>had
>It
>beatings
>speak
>time.
>
>
>yes me too. And don't sell yourself short......it was extreme courage to do
>that. Not all members of the family can do that. Sometimes it takes
>several generations. In your own family you may not feel that you have
>done enough. Sometimes the effects will take a few generations but the
>source can be you. It doesn't matter what the progress in terms of volumne
>is concerned. Frankly within a family the greatest onus (sp?) is on the
>earliest generation to make that beginning start of a change. What you
>accomplish within you own family can be the start of an even greater
>progress within your own children. :-) Think of the generations of
>stagnation (sp?) that have occurred before you. You are the impetus (sp?)
>of that change. Kudos!
Thanks. I've always tried to think, when dealing with the kids, is
this how I want them to treat their own children? It's been as much a
guide for me as anything else.
>
>
>
>
>for
>with
>is
>you
>to
>understanding.
>won't
>improve before I say it ~*~
>
~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
|
"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
news:5bdpb1hc60rrg6i2h8leu18grh2obpem9v@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 21:17:39 -0400, "Luna" <lunajean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I've had this thing with the girls since they were little. Which is
> better, I say, smart or beautiful? They learned to answer smart.
> It's great to be beautiful, I say, but smart lasts forever.
And in reality, fortunately they each got both =)
>
>
> I managed to be a 'cool' mom without setting up porn featuring my
> kids, too. I'm the mom all the other kids think is cool. My kids
> secretly think I'm cool, but they would die before saying it. On the
> other hand, I am the one who has to say the hard things - like stop
> feeling sorry for yourself, others have it worse, suck it up and get
> on with it.
>
>
> I would hate it if the girls did it. I would - I would feel so sad
> for them. I don't imagine it is something they will do, but I would
> worry deeply about their self image and what this meant and how I
> could help. Then I'd suck it up and try to be supportive.
>
> If a woman has small breasts, I can see why she would want to - in a
> society where women are still judged by their looks, it can be a big
> deal. It can be the difference between getting a job or not. In a
> society where women are judged by their looks, having small breasts
> scan feel like being disfigured, I bet.
>
> My kids inherited my big boobs. And my smarts.
>
>
> ~*~ I am incredibly silly, so I emphasize you. My tropical liaison won't
> improve before I say it ~*~
| |
|
| On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 05:16:34 GMT, Liz <isnexttogodly@heaven.net >
wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 01:12:09 -0400, "Panther"
><panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
>
>There's that. It's a big deal and I'll have that, too.
>
>But does that mean I was good enough, did a good enough job?
>I have smart, funny, ethical and empathic children. Will they be
>able to survive in the world? Did I give them that? Did I give
>them everything I meant to, tried to, wanted to? Did I manage
>to impart as little of my bad stuff as I could?
exactly. i worry about that, too.
i know i never poured the raw hatred on my son that my mom habitually
poured on me. but were there other things? such as, rather than
erring drastically on the side of control, did i err on the side of
neglect? did my laissez-faire style of parenting hurt him as badly as
the force-all-the-i's-dotted-and-the-t's-crossed, hyper-1950's style
of my own parents?
azure
| |
|
| Panther, thank you. what a beautiful message of hope.
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 03:46:06 -0400, "Panther"
<panther@asarian-intl.org> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <isnexttogodly@heaven.net > wrote in message
>news:cvppb1tg29ibaarqlpmle4c8o35lvse0lo@4ax.com...
>abuser?
>and
>neglected
>to
>on
>they
>with
>possibility
>that.
>to
>when
>I
>never
>take
>and
>things
>whatever
>even
>not
>they
>differentuate
>my
>from
>in
>of
>was
>they
>hope
>
>Yes. And it's a VERY big deal. Generations have gone into what happened to
>us. We, for some reason, changed the tide. Lots of victims appeared to
>have said NO MORE. Perhaps they killed off the weaker ones, I don't know.
>But we survived. We made changes and our children are better off as a
>result. We may not have been perfect, but we did make a difference (our
>generation). Despite our flaws, Kudos to us! And I sincerely believe that.
>
>
>
>
>You know, yeah, I suspect that we imparted some of our "bad stuff" but it's
>not an iota of the bad stuff that has gone on for generations that we lived
>through. I think that we made a huge difference over the last 20 years
>(what's that? two-three generations?) I really believe that as a result
>of our pain, our children will never suffer what we did. Will some? Yes
>some will but not through the silence we did. Our generations did make a
>big difference. No one can solve all lifes problems but I think we made a
>major dent in child abuse. I don't think that culture will be the same
>since our generations. Eric may complain about the Sex Abuse generations
>but that is a compliment as far as I'm concerned :-)
>
>We can never give our children everything they may have wanted. We're
>human. And hey, as they have their own children they may see that some of
>our decisions were based in love and nurturing. Nurtureing doesn't mean
>we're always right, it just means we tried to the best of our ability. Did
>we make some mistakes? Sure! and guess what. Ever parent does, it's
>human. Our own children will make some mistakes too, but what we try to
>impart is that regardless of that we loved them and did our best regardless
>of what our circumstances were. Circumstances are funny things. Sometimes
>they ar | | |