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SQ -- a long dissertation for you on aar relationships, bashing, flames and ok....choc
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| sloopy 2004-12-22, 10:06 pm |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
ok so....I had to respond to this....(see there's that compulsion
thing)
(snipped some to get here)
>It seems that most of us have a narrow group of feelings that bind us to
>the newsgroup. Then when the right kind of conversation comes
>along, we participate more ardently, fading away again when the tone of the
>group changes.
yes, there's that...and it appears that many of us are compelled to
come to the "aid" of someone that we consider to be, unneccessarily
bashed, or misinterpreted or treated poorly.
>Sometimes it looks like a feeding frenzy, when a chance for an outpouring of
>cruelty arises, and it's discouraging to see the increase in the volume and
>quantity of participation that occurs. Is that the need we've been carrying
>with us during the quiet times?
maybe. I don't particularily get off on egregious cruelty, and I've
gotten my butt in a sling many times here when I say something in
support of the underdog, or make a chastising comment to someone I
care about but who's behavior at that given moment is --- hmmm,
questionable. And I've also been drawn into the fracas, willingly
participating...and I regret most of it, and have offered shamed
apologies.
BUT...neither should one sit by and watch someone spout untruths, or
misinterpretations, so when the mood strikes me....I post on it.....I
try not to be cruel, but....what I think is brutal honesty, someone
else may see as cruel.. -- and it seems as though no amount of
protestin to the contrary can change a persons mind when they have
convinced themselves that the intent of anothers words, or that those
words were purely for cruelty sake --- even when they werent. been
embarrasingly guilty of it myself.
>
>I don't know, but I hope I'm wrong. Perhaps an outpouring *here* is simply
>like emptying a body part that, once emptied *here* poses less capacity for
>cruelty for those who rely on us in "real life". (anybody actually *having*
>one of those?)  }
I think when we differentiate between "here" and "real life"....that
too causes some negative reactions. When I began my "net world" many
years ago, I would talk to folks, get to know them, email, IRC etc,
and then one day - maybe -- meet them, I've had folks stay in my home
from all over the world.....such fun. and some of the folks who I
adored on line were repulsive in "real life" as it's defined. And I'm
sure some of them felt the same about me.
Sure, lots of folks can create personnas in this anonymous arena that
don't remotely resemble their day to day world.....but very few can
sustain the facade for years and years-- it ends up leaking out --
even if only in bits and pieces.
I remember when I first met Liz...initially, we we're ok...then we
battled, then we were ok, then we battled.....eventually, we made
peace.....do you want to know why I kept trying with liz? because I
find her fascinating, intriguing and brilliant --- and I'm sure she is
that way in "real life" as well.....it's difficult to disguise that,
even here.
same with windy -- I once considered her a friend.....but somewhere
along the line, I angered her, and as much as I believe I've tried,
and she believes she's tried......to no avail -- and that's ok.
and Mica.....one night, he and several others, sat on IRC providing me
with feedback, I didn't want it , didn't want to hear, and didn't want
to believe but I respected those folks and in the end, what I got was
some of the most valuable advice.all without making me feel like I was
crap...and I'm grateful.
And james -- all I know about his life, is what has been written
here....I don't know the truth of any of it. but, he and I used to
have some good talks --- believe it or not, he used to give me all the
reasons why I should keep trying with certain folks --- and then, I
don't know what happened....I honestly don't.
I could go on and on, because there are many others.........with just
as many stories about our encounters. The point --- sure it may feel
(and in reality, be) safer to dump in this arena perhaps because no
one can reach out and whack us a good one.....but, in doing so, we
always have to remember that those we are dumping on, are REAL ---
when we lose sight of that....that's when it becomes way too easy to
act like a horse's XXX.....I always try to see it in terms of "what
if..." -- what if the person I'm talking to becomes the one great
friend in my life, or the one who discovers a cure for AIDs......and I
blew it by being a big meanie. Then of course, there's the.....yeah,
so what....they were a jerk....aspect too.
no one, I don't think anyway, who exhibits abhorrent behavior here,
could behave that way in, say, a public library, or a grocery store,
without receiving some sort of admonisthment....why should here be any
different?
>
>I prefer to kick politics around factually, economics, and the odds and ends
>of daily life. I'll often fade fast when it gets to the highly emotional
>subject matter, unless I hear "facts" that simply aren't facts.
which is why I bailed on the DV conversation ---- I thought the
conversation itself was valuable, but when it turns to critizing
someone for "feelings" or "choices' that others don't agree with...I'm
just not willing to place my feelings or choices, or lack thereof, on
the chopping block when those feelings and choices stop being
utilized for productive dialogue. I share because I think it may be
valuable in terms of the conversation, when I think it's not valuable
anymore...well...there you go.
>Perhaps that's why the "You're ugly and you were mean many years ago" stuff
>just annoys me, and I often do my own "dropout" routine, until someone says
>that "Raising the minimum wage would make us all wealthier" or some other
>such misguided liberal train of thought }
>
>And, lest it sound like I think I am qualified to judge the group, I'm just
>as flawed as anyone else. Perhaps the difference is that Christmas is such
>a beautiful time for me that the dissonance between "real life" and AAR is
>simply much greater at this time of year.
again with the "real life" --- why is it we seem to forget that the
folks typing these words that convey real emotion, are real?
And maybe, because it is the holidays --- I felt like giving you all
the reasons I think it's important to be a voice here during good and
bad, and I think it's equally important to have a balanced view of
this place.......it may not always be the healthiest place, but it's
not insignificant, and sometimes, it's perfectly ok to halt a good
conversation, and gently (or not so gently if preferred) nudge the
bully of the month outta the way.
I have received such wonderous things from the folks here......time,
wisdom, advice, constructive critisiscm. And I think I've made some
pretty good friends along the way too. Folks I would welcome into my
home, and have.
A few years ago, I remember when this group found out my monitor died,
there was an effort...spearheaded by windy and specialk ....to get me
another one....I was absolutley floored, and touched.
One year, I received this beautiful plant from a couple of folks, when
I was sick.....
When my mother died --- I cannot tell you the samount of upport I
received here, phone calls, IRC and in email --- it was amazing.
I've sent many communications to folks here --- cards, letters, phone
calls....so to me, they are all real, and part of MY real life.
I don't say that angrily, -- just emphatically -- there is much too
appreciate about aar, even the bad things teach us.......
>
>Or, possibly I'm just full of crap and tired. That happens too }
yes, of course, that's it!!...
With regard to chocolate --- I heartily recommend it, especially on
strawberries.
Hope you and yours have a wonderful, relaxing, safe holiday.
d
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|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:56:03 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>"SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>ok so....I had to respond to this....(see there's that compulsion
>thing)
>
>(snipped some to get here)
>
>
>yes, there's that...and it appears that many of us are compelled to
>come to the "aid" of someone that we consider to be, unneccessarily
>bashed, or misinterpreted or treated poorly.
I tend to come to the aid of someone I care about, and I do it all the
time. I used to struggle with the bit about how if I come to their
aid, they won't learn to fight for themselves. Then I went through
the bit about how they may not want aid.
Then I said XXXX it. I aid.
On the other hand, I won't join a bash fest simply because I do not
like the person being bashed. They have to do or say something that
pisses me off for me to jump in.
>
>maybe. I don't particularily get off on egregious cruelty, and I've
>gotten my butt in a sling many times here when I say something in
>support of the underdog, or make a chastising comment to someone I
>care about but who's behavior at that given moment is --- hmmm,
>questionable. And I've also been drawn into the fracas, willingly
>participating...and I regret most of it, and have offered shamed
>apologies.
>
>BUT...neither should one sit by and watch someone spout untruths, or
>misinterpretations
Bingo. Bingo, bingo bingo. That's when, if I dislike someone but
have been quiet, I'll jump in.
> so when the mood strikes me....I post on it.....I
>try not to be cruel, but....what I think is brutal honesty, someone
>else may see as cruel.. -- and it seems as though no amount of
>protestin to the contrary can change a persons mind when they have
>convinced themselves that the intent of anothers words, or that those
>words were purely for cruelty sake --- even when they werent. been
>embarrasingly guilty of it myself.
>
>
>I think when we differentiate between "here" and "real life"....that
>too causes some negative reactions. When I began my "net world" many
>years ago, I would talk to folks, get to know them, email, IRC etc,
>and then one day - maybe -- meet them, I've had folks stay in my home
>from all over the world.....such fun. and some of the folks who I
>adored on line were repulsive in "real life" as it's defined. And I'm
>sure some of them felt the same about me.
>
>Sure, lots of folks can create personnas in this anonymous arena that
>don't remotely resemble their day to day world.....but very few can
>sustain the facade for years and years-- it ends up leaking out --
>even if only in bits and pieces.
It usually doesn't take long, either. I think a facade is created for
a specific reason and it takes more energy than most people have to
sustain the facade past when they have satisfied what they created it
for.
>I remember when I first met Liz...initially, we we're ok...then we
>battled, then we were ok, then we battled.....eventually, we made
>peace.....do you want to know why I kept trying with liz? because I
>find her fascinating, intriguing and brilliant --- and I'm sure she is
>that way in "real life" as well.....it's difficult to disguise that,
>even here.
Thank you. That echoes how I feel about you. Jean, too.
>same with windy -- I once considered her a friend.....but somewhere
>along the line, I angered her, and as much as I believe I've tried,
>and she believes she's tried......to no avail -- and that's ok.
>
>and Mica.....one night, he and several others, sat on IRC providing me
>with feedback, I didn't want it , didn't want to hear, and didn't want
>to believe but I respected those folks and in the end, what I got was
>some of the most valuable advice.all without making me feel like I was
>crap...and I'm grateful.
>
>And james -- all I know about his life, is what has been written
>here....I don't know the truth of any of it. but, he and I used to
>have some good talks --- believe it or not, he used to give me all the
>reasons why I should keep trying with certain folks --- and then, I
>don't know what happened....I honestly don't.
>
>I could go on and on, because there are many others.........with just
>as many stories about our encounters. The point --- sure it may feel
>(and in reality, be) safer to dump in this arena perhaps because no
>one can reach out and whack us a good one.....but, in doing so, we
>always have to remember that those we are dumping on, are REAL ---
>when we lose sight of that....that's when it becomes way too easy to
>act like a horse's XXX.....I always try to see it in terms of "what
>if..." -- what if the person I'm talking to becomes the one great
>friend in my life, or the one who discovers a cure for AIDs......and I
>blew it by being a big meanie. Then of course, there's the.....yeah,
>so what....they were a jerk....aspect too.
I don't agree in that I firmly believe that people who are assholes
don't really deserve to be treated well. I have heard the survivor
thing that everyone deserves to be treated well, but I just don't
agree. I will sometimes try longer than I normally would to treat an
XXX well enough to say I tried, but most of the time I firmly believe
that if you are a shit, you deserve shit. If you are a shit you do
not deserve people who believe they need to keep trying.
>no one, I don't think anyway, who exhibits abhorrent behavior here,
>could behave that way in, say, a public library, or a grocery store,
>without receiving some sort of admonisthment....why should here be any
>different?
On the other hand...heh...I feel safer venting my anger at those
people here who have hurt or pissed me off BECAUSE it is safe here.
It should be safer irl to react, but it isn't. Here, it is.
>
>which is why I bailed on the DV conversation ---- I thought the
>conversation itself was valuable, but when it turns to critizing
>someone for "feelings" or "choices' that others don't agree with...I'm
>just not willing to place my feelings or choices, or lack thereof, on
>the chopping block when those feelings and choices stop being
>utilized for productive dialogue. I share because I think it may be
>valuable in terms of the conversation, when I think it's not valuable
>anymore...well...there you go.
>
>
>again with the "real life" --- why is it we seem to forget that the
>folks typing these words that convey real emotion, are real?
>
>And maybe, because it is the holidays --- I felt like giving you all
>the reasons I think it's important to be a voice here during good and
>bad, and I think it's equally important to have a balanced view of
>this place.......it may not always be the healthiest place, but it's
>not insignificant, and sometimes, it's perfectly ok to halt a good
>conversation, and gently (or not so gently if preferred) nudge the
>bully of the month outta the way.
I think so too, and I believe the knee jerk thing about how we
shouldn't do so is one of those weird survivor things, one of the
fluffy white angel song bits about how all people deserve niceness no
matter what because we got hurt. It's crap.
>I have received such wonderous things from the folks here......time,
>wisdom, advice, constructive critisiscm. And I think I've made some
>pretty good friends along the way too. Folks I would welcome into my
>home, and have.
>
>A few years ago, I remember when this group found out my monitor died,
>there was an effort...spearheaded by windy and specialk ....to get me
>another one....I was absolutley floored, and touched.
I think Pat had a lot to do with that. if I remember convos in irc
right, it was Pat who was doing the organizing.
It was a long time ago - people who were able to have worked together
then would not be able to do so now. For instance, it would be more
likely that Suzanne would buy the monitor herself, outside any other
effort to do a group thing.
And I wonder if now, all these years after coming here to 'recover',
if people would still pull together at all. If it had as much to do
with being fluffy white angel songs as decency. I don't know.
>One year, I received this beautiful plant from a couple of folks, when
>I was sick.....
>
>When my mother died --- I cannot tell you the samount of upport I
>received here, phone calls, IRC and in email --- it was amazing.
>
>I've sent many communications to folks here --- cards, letters, phone
>calls....so to me, they are all real, and part of MY real life.
>
>I don't say that angrily, -- just emphatically -- there is much too
>appreciate about aar, even the bad things teach us.......
I've said it before: what I have learned and been the focus of here
saved my life and made me a better, stronger person and parent.
>
>yes, of course, that's it!!...
>
>With regard to chocolate --- I heartily recommend it, especially on
>strawberries.
>
>Hope you and yours have a wonderful, relaxing, safe holiday.
>
>d
| |
| lovetap 2004-12-22, 10:06 pm |
|
sloopy wrote:
>
> I remember when I first met Liz...initially, we we're ok...then we
> battled, then we were ok, then we battled.....eventually, we made
> peace.....do you want to know why I kept trying with liz? because I
> find her fascinating, intriguing and brilliant --- and I'm sure she
is
> that way in "real life" as well.....it's difficult to disguise that,
> even here.
some people found Ted Bundy to be fascinating, intriguing and brilliant
as well.
| |
|
| On 22 Dec 2004 18:55:30 -0800, "lovetap" <dr.lovetap@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>sloopy wrote:
>
>is
>
>some people found Ted Bundy to be fascinating, intriguing and brilliant
>as well.
I have a Volkswagon. Want a ride?
| |
| sloopy 2004-12-22, 10:06 pm |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"lovetap" <dr.lovetap@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>some people found Ted Bundy to be fascinating, intriguing and brilliant
>as well.
and this comment, while quite unneccessary, beautifully illustrates
SQ's point.....
for no apparent reason, you felt it necessary to interject this into a
thread that was intended to have folks engaging in productive
dialogue, you chose to use it as a backhanded slam on liz.....
I don't know your relationship with liz, or why you feel the way you
do,so perhaps you'd be so kind as to share, what exactly is the point
of your comment?
d
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| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 2:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>I tend to come to the aid of someone I care about, and I do it all the
>time. I used to struggle with the bit about how if I come to their
>aid, they won't learn to fight for themselves. Then I went through
>the bit about how they may not want aid.
I used to come to the aid of anyone I thought needed it....silly
goose, it usually only pissed others off...or pissed off the person I
was trying to come to the aid of ...*ahem*
>
>Then I said XXXX it. I aid.
>
>On the other hand, I won't join a bash fest simply because I do not
>like the person being bashed. They have to do or say something that
>pisses me off for me to jump in.
>
me either....although I'm sure others see it differently.
>
>Bingo. Bingo, bingo bingo. That's when, if I dislike someone but
>have been quiet, I'll jump in.
I know there are many who purposely remain quiet, and will state that
being quiet doesn't imply agreement...and I get that...but neither
does silence imply disagreement......(is that like a dangling
participle?)
>It usually doesn't take long, either. I think a facade is created for
>a specific reason and it takes more energy than most people have to
>sustain the facade past when they have satisfied what they created it
>for.
yup
>Thank you. That echoes how I feel about you. Jean, too.
isn't it funny how when we stop screaming long enough, and let down a
few barriers....take a chance as it were....we can find some truly
amazing folks....it's a hard thing to do though.....especially given
that trust is one of the most delicate issues among abuse
survivors.....
>I don't agree in that I firmly believe that people who are assholes
>don't really deserve to be treated well. I have heard the survivor
>thing that everyone deserves to be treated well, but I just don't
>agree. I will sometimes try longer than I normally would to treat an
>XXX well enough to say I tried, but most of the time I firmly believe
>that if you are a shit, you deserve shit. If you are a shit you do
>not deserve people who believe they need to keep trying.
yeah...my husband feels that there are those in this world is simply
deserve a good thrashing based on their behavior...no second chances,
no nothing...period.
I have trouble with it. Even my ex.....I used to imagine all the
rotten things I could do....then, realized I could never actually do
them. I don't know that I necessarily think everyone deserves to be
treated "well"......I think some folks aren't deserving of anything
from me.....now whether that rocks their world or not...I dunno.
>On the other hand...heh...I feel safer venting my anger at those
>people here who have hurt or pissed me off BECAUSE it is safe here.
>It should be safer irl to react, but it isn't. Here, it is.
yup...there's that too.
>I think so too, and I believe the knee jerk thing about how we
>shouldn't do so is one of those weird survivor things, one of the
>fluffy white angel song bits about how all people deserve niceness no
>matter what because we got hurt. It's crap.
I think (trumpets blaring)....that we all not only have the right, but
the obligation, to step in when something has reached outside the
boundaries of common decency.....imagine all the people who would have
had different experiences if just ONE person had stood up and
said..."hey...stop that...it's not nice..."
>I think Pat had a lot to do with that. if I remember convos in irc
>right, it was Pat who was doing the organizing.
egads!! I don't think I remembered that......my apologies to
pat......
>And I wonder if now, all these years after coming here to 'recover',
>if people would still pull together at all. If it had as much to do
>with being fluffy white angel songs as decency. I don't know.
I would.....
d
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| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:49:10 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>"lovetap" <dr.lovetap@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>and this comment, while quite unneccessary, beautifully illustrates
>SQ's point.....
>
>for no apparent reason, you felt it necessary to interject this into a
>thread that was intended to have folks engaging in productive
>dialogue, you chose to use it as a backhanded slam on liz.....
>
>I don't know your relationship with liz, or why you feel the way you
>do,so perhaps you'd be so kind as to share, what exactly is the point
>of your comment?
I don't know what it is, either. Lovetap has been lilke this with me
from their very first post to or about me. To be fair, I don't know
what I would do if the earth shifted on its axis and it stopped - I've
come to count on it :P
>
>d
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:02 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>
>
>I used to come to the aid of anyone I thought needed it....silly
>goose, it usually only pissed others off...or pissed off the person I
>was trying to come to the aid of ...*ahem*
What an XXXXXXX that person was. Sheesh. Good thing they don't post
here anymore!
>
>me either....although I'm sure others see it differently.
>
>
>I know there are many who purposely remain quiet, and will state that
>being quiet doesn't imply agreement...and I get that...but neither
>does silence imply disagreement......(is that like a dangling
>participle?)
Neither does a peanut imply butter. Nor would a baseball imply a
game.
>
>yup
>
>
>
>isn't it funny how when we stop screaming long enough, and let down a
>few barriers....take a chance as it were....we can find some truly
>amazing folks....it's a hard thing to do though.....especially given
>that trust is one of the most delicate issues among abuse
>survivors...
Yeppers. And you know, I used to get really upset if I couldn't make
the people who hated me like me. I would bend over backwards to
explain myself or defend myself in the hopes of changing a mind. Even
changing the mind of the person who already knew they were lying about
me.
And one day something clicked, and I started wondering why I thought
those people should be worthy of me in the first place.
It isn't just trust, you know? I think survivors in general tend to
be willing to do a lot to make people care about them, maybe because
not being mad at us was such a big deal. Don't be mad at me = don't
hurt me.
>
>yeah...my husband feels that there are those in this world is simply
>deserve a good thrashing based on their behavior...no second chances,
>no nothing...period.
I'll give second chances. And thirds.
>I have trouble with it. Even my ex.....I used to imagine all the
>rotten things I could do....then, realized I could never actually do
>them.
Me too. I used to imagine all kinds of deliciously awful things I
would like to see done to D., and I was genuinely heartbroken when I
realized I could never sit back and let it happen, certainly not on my
behalf.
> I don't know that I necessarily think everyone deserves to be
>treated "well"......I think some folks aren't deserving of anything
>from me.....now whether that rocks their world or not...I dunno.
>
>
>yup...there's that too.
>
>
>
>I think (trumpets blaring)....that we all not only have the right, but
>the obligation, to step in when something has reached outside the
>boundaries of common decency.....imagine all the people who would have
>had different experiences if just ONE person had stood up and
>said..."hey...stop that...it's not nice..."
On the other side of that coin, how many times would stepping in on
behalf of them would have changed the mind or behavior of the abuser?
>
>egads!! I don't think I remembered that......my apologies to
>pat......
I could be wrong, deb. But I think it was Pat. I think I remember
Kaitlyn being involved, too. Taz.
>
>I would.....
I would, too. Even for someone I dislike, depending on the situation.
But not to prove I was fluffy white angel song.
>
>d
| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 2:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>I would, too. Even for someone I dislike, depending on the situation.
>But not to prove I was fluffy white angel song.
but stepping in, in the face of dislike would not a fluffy white angel
song make....
hahahaah....I'm killing me.
d
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| sloopy 2004-12-23, 2:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>What an XXXXXXX that person was. Sheesh. Good thing they don't post
>here anymore!
well...true 'nuff....course, neither an angel nor fluffy while song
was I..... uh....yeah.
>Neither does a peanut imply butter. Nor would a baseball imply a
>game.
I'm definetly stealing this
>Yeppers. And you know, I used to get really upset if I couldn't make
>the people who hated me like me. I would bend over backwards to
>explain myself or defend myself in the hopes of changing a mind. Even
>changing the mind of the person who already knew they were lying about
>me.
yeah....I did too. my nickname used to be "d the Doormat."
........give ya any clues? I'd do whatever, whenever, just so they
would like me. now.....not being liked is ok...it's being
misunderstood that drives me to peel the skin off my face
>I'll give second chances. And thirds.
and 1000's.....know the song, wrote the lyrics I think that's
another survivor thing.....giving chances. Hoping against all odds
that "this" is the time they really will change.
>Me too. I used to imagine all kinds of deliciously awful things I
>would like to see done to D., and I was genuinely heartbroken when I
>realized I could never sit back and let it happen, certainly not on my
>behalf.
I used to wish I didn't have those little devil/angel thingies on my
shoulders.....I never could shake 'em though.
>
>
>On the other side of that coin, how many times would stepping in on
>behalf of them would have changed the mind or behavior of the abuser?
don't think any really.
>I could be wrong, deb. But I think it was Pat. I think I remember
>Kaitlyn being involved, too. Taz.
I looked through some old emails....I couldn't find anything.....my
mind is fading.
>I would, too. Even for someone I dislike, depending on the situation.
>But not to prove I was fluffy white angel song.
ha...so says you....you lil' fluffy white angel thingie....
d
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| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:51:55 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>
>
>but stepping in, in the face of dislike would not a fluffy white angel
>song make....
>
>hahahaah....I'm killing me.
*l*
>d
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:58:57 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>
>
>well...true 'nuff....course, neither an angel nor fluffy while song
>was I..... uh....yeah.
>
>
>
>I'm definetly stealing this
It was good...
>
>yeah....I did too. my nickname used to be "d the Doormat."
>.......give ya any clues? I'd do whatever, whenever, just so they
>would like me. now.....not being liked is ok...it's being
>misunderstood that drives me to peel the skin off my face
I don't like being misunderstood either. My default is to explain.
Why is that? But I got to where I stopped explaining most things to
most people, because I learned that most of the time it won't matter
what you say. People will usually believe what they want to believe.
The net taught me that.
>
>and 1000's.....know the song, wrote the lyrics I think that's
>another survivor thing.....giving chances. Hoping against all odds
>that "this" is the time they really will change.
Rosie was the first to say to me that insanity is defined by doing the
same thing over and over and each time expecting different results.
Epiphany moment.
The truth is, I won't give people I love more than one more chance.
I've said it before that I don't give a shit what people I don't like
think of me. I only hurt when it is someone I care about.
>
>I used to wish I didn't have those little devil/angel thingies on my
>shoulders.....I never could shake 'em though.
I don't. I shudder to think who I would be if not for that. I'd
definitely be in jail. Or dead. And so would at least two other
people with me.
>
>don't think any really.
So see? When my son says that such and so at school is really pissing
him off with behavior x, I always tell him not to treat that person
mean, that he should try to model the appropriate behavior instead.
And that works really well for kids at his school.
But most of the time, and certainly with adults, it is rare that you
can go in, be the picture of wonderfulness and have them go 'OH! NOW
I get it'. I'd rather just go in and shoot them.
>
>I looked through some old emails....I couldn't find anything.....my
>mind is fading.
I could go throough the old logs. I probably still have them
somewhere. I save everything until I get rid of it.
>
>ha...so says you....you lil' fluffy white angel thingie...
Ew.
What's the keystroke for 'icky face'?
>
>d
| |
| hornpipe 2004-12-23, 4:06 am |
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:18:44 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:49:10 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
>wrote:
>
>
>I don't know what it is, either. Lovetap has been lilke this with me
>from their very first post to or about me. To be fair, I don't know
>what I would do if the earth shifted on its axis and it stopped - I've
>come to count on it :P
>
there's something about "lovetap" that screams "sockpuppet"
--
hornpipe
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 -0800, hornpipe <hornpipe_2@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 04:18:44 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>
>there's something about "lovetap" that screams "sockpuppet"
Then again, so does 'hornpipe'.
| |
| hornpipe 2004-12-23, 4:06 am |
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:18:07 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 -0800, hornpipe <hornpipe_2@yahoo.ca>
>wrote:
>
>
>Then again, so does 'hornpipe'.
yah, but I'm one of a kind.
--
hornpipe
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:20:29 -0800, hornpipe <hornpipe_2@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:18:07 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>
>yah, but I'm one of a kind.
What are you doing up so late?
| |
| hornpipe 2004-12-23, 4:06 am |
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:35:03 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:20:29 -0800, hornpipe <hornpipe_2@yahoo.ca>
>wrote:
>
>
>What are you doing up so late?
I'm doing illegal stuff that makes it hard to concentrate.
hey, that's deja vu,
I honestly don't care if someone runs "sockpuppets" in the same group.
I don't think it's any argument in favor of a defense of
"disassociation" for any act.
--
hornpipe
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:49:00 -0800, hornpipe <hornpipe_2@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 08:35:03 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net > wrote:
>
>
>I'm doing illegal stuff that makes it hard to concentrate.
>hey, that's deja vu,
>
>I honestly don't care if someone runs "sockpuppets" in the same group.
>I don't think it's any argument in favor of a defense of
>"disassociation" for any act.
Oh, don't get me startedon the use of 'alters' to excuse behavior.
Me, I'm blogging and watching 'Fresh Prince of Belair'.
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:36:55 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net >
wrote in message
<uqsks0duc2mn00nd07v8iplnkt9j2bhg14@4ax.com> the following:
>But I got to where I stopped explaining most things to
>most people, because I learned that most of the time it won't matter
>what you say. People will usually believe what they want to believe.
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:56:03 GMT, sloopy
<sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<b1788146248.b7cfbd4616bae5023c04d5@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>And james -- all I know about his life, is what has been written
>here....I don't know the truth of any of it. but, he and I used to
>have some good talks --- believe it or not, he used to give me all the
>reasons why I should keep trying with certain folks --- and then, I
>don't know what happened....I honestly don't.
Have you tried asking...
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:02 GMT, sloopy
<sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<68a6d58973c.22a0e8b80e3c3003884da5@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>I think (trumpets blaring)....that we all not only have the right, but
>the obligation, to step in when something has reached outside the
>boundaries of common decency.....imagine all the people who would have
>had different experiences if just ONE person had stood up and
>said..."hey...stop that...it's not nice..."
What's the difference between thinking and action?
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:02 GMT, sloopy
<sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<68a6d58973c.22a0e8b80e3c3003884da5@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>I used to come to the aid of anyone I thought needed it....silly
>goose, it usually only pissed others off...or pissed off the person I
>was trying to come to the aid of ...*ahem*
It sounds as if you were doing it for the wrong reason...
and more to the point, the wrong person.
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:40:52 +0800, James
<James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:36:55 GMT, Liz <welshwop@.net >
>wrote in message
><uqsks0duc2mn00nd07v8iplnkt9j2bhg14@4ax.com> the following:
>
Imitation. Sincere. Flattery.
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:43:38 +0800, James
<James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 00:12:37 -0800, hornpipe
><hornpipe_2@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
><kevks0hrgla46r6i8i4nsmd6m8kngjq2vj@4ax.com> the following:
>
>
>Now... if only you could figure out where that screaming is
>actually coming from...
Stepkids saw you on the street?
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 18:45:20 +0800, James
<James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:56:03 GMT, sloopy
><sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
><b1788146248.b7cfbd4616bae5023c04d5@asarian-host.net> the
>following:
>
>
>Have you tried asking...
HOW many times did we need to ask? Try *thousands* and when you
finally did say something about yourself, it was a creepy little story
about looking at your step kids private parts, you XXXXing freakazoid.
| |
| windswept 2004-12-23, 7:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"James" <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote in message
news:if8ls0lqvdlf0iu7stag657od23r2dn8bm@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:59:02 GMT, sloopy
> <sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
> <68a6d58973c.22a0e8b80e3c3003884da5@asarian-host.net> the
> following:
>
>
> What's the difference between thinking and action?
A lotta talk.
>
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| |
| gardenia 2004-12-23, 7:06 am |
| ya'll could have asked me..
We got together to re-do Jean's bathroom after Andre died. We did a few
food baskets as well.
Liz wrote:[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I could be wrong, deb. But I think it was Pat. I think I remember
> Kaitlyn being involved, too. Taz.
>
| |
| lovetap 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| there's something about "hornpipe" that screams "desperately seeking a
blowjob".
| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"gardenia" <patgaz@prodigy.net> wrote:
>ya'll could have asked me..
>
>We got together to re-do Jean's bathroom after Andre died. We did a few
>food baskets as well.
yeah...I remember that...
SEE SQ....good things happen here.....so pfffffft...
d
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| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
James <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>
>Have you tried asking...
yes...I have...several times.
I also, usually respond to your inquiries, and get no response from
you.
so...all the asking in the world gets no response...so I've stopped
asking.
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| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
windswept <windswept@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
>
>A lotta talk.
a lotta buttin in.....again.
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| |
| James 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:14:20 GMT, sloopy
<sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<64c68dd2a12973f403f6d7.02957c55ed16@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>James <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>yes...I have...several times.
>
>I also, usually respond to your inquiries, and get no response from
>you.
>
>so...all the asking in the world gets no response...so I've stopped
>asking.
Odd as it may seem to you, that's precisely the impression I
have of you... that I get no response.
Oddly enough, there are several recent inquiries of you to
which I got no response.
When might you be on IRC next?
| |
| James 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:30:39 GMT, windswept
<windswept@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<a40ef2cf1494.a8450c1185ddef97da956@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>"James" <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote in message
>news:if8ls0lqvdlf0iu7stag657od23r2dn8bm@4ax.com...
>
>A lotta talk.
>
What's the difference between hoping and action?[vbcol=seagreen]
| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 11:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
James <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>When might you be on IRC next?
I'm rarely on IRC.......except when I know someone else is going to be
there
d
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|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:42:17 GMT, sloopy
<sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<c662e70a1a5c.d2c90ba623af970832c36@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>James <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>I'm rarely on IRC.......except when I know someone else is going to be
>there
>
I'll be on the lookout for someone calling for company on
IRC.
>d
| |
| SpiritQuest 2004-12-23, 7:06 pm |
|
"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
news:dnaks052fm88lmocsahnuagt3gh1a182r8@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 01:56:03 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
> wrote:
>
the[vbcol=seagreen]
I tend to stand back and hope for reason to prevail ( is *that* unrealistic,
or what?) } The most I can do is talk to the process/pattern of
conflicts on AAR because I never know what they *really* spring from.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I tend to come to the aid of someone I care about, and I do it all the
> time. I used to struggle with the bit about how if I come to their
> aid, they won't learn to fight for themselves. Then I went through
> the bit about how they may not want aid.
>
> Then I said XXXX it. I aid.
Well, that always makes *me* feel better }
>
> On the other hand, I won't join a bash fest simply because I do not
> like the person being bashed. They have to do or say something that
> pisses me off for me to jump in.
>
outpouring of[vbcol=seagreen]
and[vbcol=seagreen]
carrying[vbcol=seagreen]
I've probably committed every known error that can be imagined here.
Learning requires mistakes, methinks.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Bingo. Bingo, bingo bingo. That's when, if I dislike someone but
> have been quiet, I'll jump in.
>
Like a redneck bar on Saturday night, sometimes we're walkin around looking
for a good fight, and if misinterpretation is necessary to get us there,
then, by God, that's gonna be our path }
[vbcol=seagreen]
simply[vbcol=seagreen]
for[vbcol=seagreen]
*having*[vbcol=seagreen]
Do you see "real life" as a reservation, an easily reached definition of
"sour grapes" as I do. I think that when we discount AAR as not being part
of real life, we prepare to minimize our injuries and offenses, as if they
aren't real, even if we feel them just as deeply.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> It usually doesn't take long, either. I think a facade is created for
> a specific reason and it takes more energy than most people have to
> sustain the facade past when they have satisfied what they created it
> for.
>
>
> Thank you. That echoes how I feel about you. Jean, too.
>
I was surrounded by some magnificent "old-timers" when I first "arrived" on
the net. Teal, gentle magnificent and beautiful person, all but led me by
the hand for several months to people I'd be safe with and feel it. I lost
a lot of "it's my fault I can't fix my ex and make her happy".
[vbcol=seagreen]
I've watched my own pattern, looking backward with a good calendar. I can
chart the tone of my posts by the amount of tension or celebration in my
life. Gives me a *firm* feeling of being human despite my conviction that I
am *very* rational. }[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I don't agree in that I firmly believe that people who are assholes
> don't really deserve to be treated well. I have heard the survivor
> thing that everyone deserves to be treated well, but I just don't
> agree. I will sometimes try longer than I normally would to treat an
> XXX well enough to say I tried, but most of the time I firmly believe
> that if you are a shit, you deserve shit. If you are a shit you do
> not deserve people who believe they need to keep trying.
>
>
> On the other hand...heh...I feel safer venting my anger at those
> people here who have hurt or pissed me off BECAUSE it is safe here.
> It should be safer irl to react, but it isn't. Here, it is.
>
ends[vbcol=seagreen]
emotional[vbcol=seagreen]
stuff[vbcol=seagreen]
says[vbcol=seagreen]
other[vbcol=seagreen]
just[vbcol=seagreen]
such[vbcol=seagreen]
is[vbcol=seagreen]
One "real" distinction, I believe, is that with the kids, the boss, the
neighbors, other relationships that simply *will* exists, we can't turn off
the computer and walk away without many more side effects.[vbcol=seagreen]
If we can nudge a bully. Seems often that we just get *two* people who are
over the line pushing back and forth.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> I think so too, and I believe the knee jerk thing about how we
> shouldn't do so is one of those weird survivor things, one of the
> fluffy white angel song bits about how all people deserve niceness no
> matter what because we got hurt. It's crap.
>
>
> I think Pat had a lot to do with that. if I remember convos in irc
> right, it was Pat who was doing the organizing.
>
> It was a long time ago - people who were able to have worked together
> then would not be able to do so now. For instance, it would be more
> likely that Suzanne would buy the monitor herself, outside any other
> effort to do a group thing.
>
> And I wonder if now, all these years after coming here to 'recover',
> if people would still pull together at all. If it had as much to do
> with being fluffy white angel songs as decency. I don't know.
>
>
> I've said it before: what I have learned and been the focus of here
> saved my life and made me a better, stronger person and parent.
>
And to you and yours.[vbcol=seagreen]
>
| |
|
|
|
| On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:19:52 +0800, James
<James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 16:42:17 GMT, sloopy
><sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
><c662e70a1a5c.d2c90ba623af970832c36@asarian-host.net> the
>following:
>
>I'll be on the lookout for someone calling for company on
>IRC.
Three minutes after this, someone called.
[vbcol=seagreen]
>
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:29:45 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
<spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
>news:dnaks052fm88lmocsahnuagt3gh1a182r8@4ax.com...
>the
>
>I tend to stand back and hope for reason to prevail ( is *that* unrealistic,
>or what?) } The most I can do is talk to the process/pattern of
>conflicts on AAR because I never know what they *really* spring from.
What you really do is dig sticks in sores and hope for reactions.
>
>Well, that always makes *me* feel better }
>outpouring of
>and
>carrying
>
>I've probably committed every known error that can be imagined here.
>Learning requires mistakes, methinks.
>Like a redneck bar on Saturday night, sometimes we're walkin around looking
>for a good fight, and if misinterpretation is necessary to get us there,
>then, by God, that's gonna be our path }
Projection.
>simply
>for
>*having*
>
>Do you see "real life" as a reservation, an easily reached definition of
>"sour grapes" as I do. I think that when we discount AAR as not being part
>of real life, we prepare to minimize our injuries and offenses, as if they
>aren't real, even if we feel them just as deeply.
>
>I was surrounded by some magnificent "old-timers" when I first "arrived" on
>the net. Teal, gentle magnificent and beautiful person, all but led me by
>the hand for several months to people I'd be safe with and feel it. I lost
>a lot of "it's my fault I can't fix my ex and make her happy".
>
>
>I've watched my own pattern, looking backward with a good calendar. I can
>chart the tone of my posts by the amount of tension or celebration in my
>life. Gives me a *firm* feeling of being human despite my conviction that I
>am *very* rational. }
>ends
>emotional
>stuff
>says
>other
>just
>such
>is
>
>One "real" distinction, I believe, is that with the kids, the boss, the
>neighbors, other relationships that simply *will* exists, we can't turn off
>the computer and walk away without many more side effects.
>
>If we can nudge a bully. Seems often that we just get *two* people who are
>over the line pushing back and forth.
>
>
>And to you and yours.
>
>
| |
| SpiritQuest 2004-12-23, 7:06 pm |
|
"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
news:aeams0dntmo5r0qbd8rcqlkhortbttdffi@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 19:29:45 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
> <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
unrealistic,[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> What you really do is dig sticks in sores and hope for reactions.
>
I"m generally a soothing bit of humor or a voice that says "Here's how that
part of the system works..........."
If objective reactions from me are painful, I'm surprised, unless it's pain
in people who are simply annoyed that I exist.
looking[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Projection.
>
Stop staring at my projection gal }
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:13:30 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
<spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
>news:aeams0dntmo5r0qbd8rcqlkhortbttdffi@4ax.com...
>unrealistic,
>I"m generally a soothing bit of humor
No you aren't. It's been said to you by several people that your
'soothing humor' is a jarring, disrespectful intrusion. The minute
it's said, you amplify it.
You dig sticks in sores hoping for reactions, and all the misdirection
won't change it. Neither do the smilies at the end of a sentence
change the insult.
> or a voice that says "Here's how that
>part of the system works..........."
>If objective reactions from me are painful, I'm surprised, unless it's pain
>in people who are simply annoyed that I exist.
>
>looking
>Stop staring at my projection gal }
I said projection, not wart.
| |
| SpiritQuest 2004-12-23, 7:06 pm |
|
"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
news:ikdms01ceggtjjesl31ojq1qqt229bjbqb@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 21:13:30 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
> <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> No you aren't. It's been said to you by several people that your
> 'soothing humor' is a jarring, disrespectful intrusion. The minute
> it's said, you amplify it.
I have no doubt that there are those who find sudden humor disturbing to the
"mood" of a thread. There are others who find sudden attacks an unpleasant
diversion. I don't believe that the personality of people here will change
to suit, nor will their basic emotional makeup. I think we're close to the
"take what you can use and leave the rest" phrase that we hear so often
here.
>
> You dig sticks in sores hoping for reactions, and all the misdirection
> won't change it. Neither do the smilies at the end of a sentence
> change the insult.
Obviously I'm not going to change the way I talk to people I know who are
here on the newsgroup. Neither am I going to hand over to you the process
of defining me. Your idea of who I should be is similar to your idea of
what Christmas should be. It doesn't define, it won't reshape, and it only
counts for a few yards around the area where you are sitting. Taking it on
to be a source of stress and conflict is useless. Focusing on those things
about your life that you *can* make better would bring far greater rewards.
SpiritQuest
| |
|
| On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:08:48 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
<spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
>news:ikdms01ceggtjjesl31ojq1qqt229bjbqb@4ax.com...
>I have no doubt that there are those who find sudden humor disturbing to the
>"mood" of a thread.
Save it. So save it. I'm not going to argue this one with you
because there is no point. You will neither address it or consider it
because it is a woman who is putting it out there and you refuse to
allow a woman - any woman - to tell you what to do.
Never mind that no one tried. And isn't it ironic that the very
reason you are this way - that a woman you cared for treated you like
shit - is the very reason you can't let one who really cares for you
close enough for it to matter. You just turn arounjd and dump the old
one's shit right in the new ones lap.
And I just don't have the energy this Xmas to be that lap.
| |
| sloopy 2004-12-23, 10:06 pm |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I tend to stand back and hope for reason to prevail ( is *that* unrealistic,
>or what?) }
no...not always unrealistic...sometimes reason does prevail. FOr me,
if I've made 4598 tries at being reasonable...then I'm done.
>The most I can do is talk to the process/pattern of
>conflicts on AAR because I never know what they *really* spring from.
you don't? When I look back, I find that the majority of conflicts
arise from misunderstandings...simple as that.....then, from those
misunderstandings rise accusations, mudslinging, and all the usual and
customary "fightin' words" stances....and no amount of gyrations will
convince certain folks that it was a simple misunderstanding, for some
reason, they would rather believe that anothers words were cruel and
the harm caused was purposeful.
>I've probably committed every known error that can be imagined here.
>Learning requires mistakes, methinks.
agree --- if one is actually learning from mistakes...I know I have.
But there are some here, who don't, and continue to repeat the same
crummy behavior over and over and over....I tolerated it for a long
time, then ignored it, then got good and pissed.....and made a vow to
put that behavior under a spotlight every chance I got.....even if it
is my own crappy behavior.
>Like a redneck bar on Saturday night, sometimes we're walkin around looking
>for a good fight, and if misinterpretation is necessary to get us there,
>then, by God, that's gonna be our path }
nah that's not it...it's like a redneck bar on a saturday night --
where you go because you just want to dance your wrangler clad butt
off...but then, theres always some doofus who's had one too many
beers, swears his woman is eyeing some other stud, and so to prove he
is testerone worthy --- begins to whacking on his girlfriend and no
one does a damn thing....then I step in (get a good whack to the
shoulder in the process while being told by said doofus that I'm
misinterpreting his behavior when I know damn good and well I'm not,
and so I refuse to be gaslighted....) and FINALLY others step
in.....it just takes ONE person stepping forward to say 'stop it
shithead'........and then, others see it's ok....it's like
munchkinland....once that first little munchkin came forward.....it
was like a munchkin explosion...that's what happens here I think.
>Do you see "real life" as a reservation, an easily reached definition of
>"sour grapes" as I do.
I don't understand this question --- can you re-state?
>I think that when we discount AAR as not being part
>of real life, we prepare to minimize our injuries and offenses, as if they
>aren't real, even if we feel them just as deeply.
oh....I thought you originally made the distinction between "here"
(aar) and "real life"...then I said hey don't do that. Now it sounds
like we're actually agree......so let me make sure I hear you.....you
agree that aar is not separate from real life right?
>One "real" distinction, I believe, is that with the kids, the boss, the
>neighbors, other relationships that simply *will* exists, we can't turn off
>the computer and walk away without many more side effects.
oh ye of little faith....oh sure, we can walk away from the computer,
but not the side effects. I have shed many tears, laughed
uproariously, sat in stunned silence, reflected quietly because of the
interactions here...... long after I turned off the computer. I still
carry great advice, remember aged wisdom, or stupidity, or ickiness
although those folks are no longer here....geode was one who gave me
good advice and the effect of that is still with me
today......no....the side effects do not go away with the flick of a
switch, imho.
>
>If we can nudge a bully. Seems often that we just get *two* people who are
>over the line pushing back and forth.
sometimes..yes. and sometimes, we have a bully...not always the same
bully....but a consistent bully....who occassionally needs a good rap
on the knuckles.
d
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| |
| windswept 2004-12-23, 10:06 pm |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"James" <James@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote in message
news:bdlls019aapgfi1i36dnih1v7nbav4tam5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 11:30:39 GMT, windswept
>
> <windswept@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
> <a40ef2cf1494.a8450c1185ddef97da956@asarian-host.net> the following:
>
> What's the difference between hoping and action?
A hugely interesting question!!! My answer would be fear most often. A
hope is a vision. A vision becomes a reality if you take the risk to bring
it to an action or reality. Each and every action starts with a vision.
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| |
| SpiritQuest 2004-12-23, 10:06 pm |
|
"sloopy" <sloopy@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:99fc174e87acc55.1b720f47f5e8f82149@asarian-host.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> "SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
unrealistic,[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> no...not always unrealistic...sometimes reason does prevail. FOr me,
> if I've made 4598 tries at being reasonable...then I'm done.
That sounds pretty patient }
>
>
>
> you don't? When I look back, I find that the majority of conflicts
> arise from misunderstandings...simple as that.....then, from those
> misunderstandings rise accusations, mudslinging, and all the usual and
> customary "fightin' words" stances....and no amount of gyrations will
> convince certain folks that it was a simple misunderstanding, for some
> reason, they would rather believe that anothers words were cruel and
> the harm caused was purposeful.
Don't you think, also, that sometimes people need anger, and a target for
hatred? I'm thinking of the guy/gal who has had a horrid day at work, then
comes home and blasts someone to "even the scales", even if the target
shouldn't be the target.
>
>
> agree --- if one is actually learning from mistakes...I know I have.
> But there are some here, who don't, and continue to repeat the same
> crummy behavior over and over and over....I tolerated it for a long
> time, then ignored it, then got good and pissed.....and made a vow to
> put that behavior under a spotlight every chance I got.....even if it
> is my own crappy behavior.
And there is where I circle back around to history and "real life". I don't
know if the behavior is a very emotional reaction to someone else here that
I don't understand because I haven't watched the tone of the conflict
develop, or if there's something else going on for the individual. Like a
child who may cry out "I hate you" to a parent that is beloved sometimes
there's a layer under the visible layer.
>
looking[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> nah that's not it...it's like a redneck bar on a saturday night --
> where you go because you just want to dance your wrangler clad butt
> off...but then, theres always some doofus who's had one too many
> beers, swears his woman is eyeing some other stud, and so to prove he
> is testerone worthy --- begins to whacking on his girlfriend and no
> one does a damn thing....then I step in (get a good whack to the
> shoulder in the process while being told by said doofus that I'm
> misinterpreting his behavior when I know damn good and well I'm not,
> and so I refuse to be gaslighted....) and FINALLY others step
> in.....it just takes ONE person stepping forward to say 'stop it
> shithead'........and then, others see it's ok....it's like
> munchkinland....once that first little munchkin came forward.....it
> was like a munchkin explosion...that's what happens here I think.
It's still hard to figure out who tossed the first blow, especially if it
was struck years ago. That's where I can't see whose venom is "righteous"
and whose venom is "bad behavior".
I understand fighting fire with fire. I'm just not totally convinced.
>
>
>
> I don't understand this question --- can you re-state?
>
they[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> oh....I thought you originally made the distinction between "here"
> (aar) and "real life"...then I said hey don't do that. Now it sounds
> like we're actually agree......so let me make sure I hear you.....you
> agree that aar is not separate from real life right?
I wasn't very clear, was I? }
I think that "here" on AAR, it is easy to convince ourselves that it doesn't
matter, that since it isn't "real life", any errors, conflicts, etc. are
simply part of some minor game. That way hurts don't hurt as much.
>
>
off[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> oh ye of little faith....oh sure, we can walk away from the computer,
> but not the side effects. I have shed many tears, laughed
> uproariously, sat in stunned silence, reflected quietly because of the
> interactions here...... long after I turned off the computer. I still
> carry great advice, remember aged wisdom, or stupidity, or ickiness
> although those folks are no longer here....geode was one who gave me
> good advice and the effect of that is still with me
> today......no....the side effects do not go away with the flick of a
> switch, imho.
The computer is more easily avoided, though. It doesn't ask for gas money,
want time to discuss the latest girlfriend. Nor does it cry out "pay this
or your heat gets cut off". Still, I understand what you're saying. A
forum significantly different from one's daily life is very much like having
a chance to live life twice and benefit from it.
>
are[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> sometimes..yes. and sometimes, we have a bully...not always the same
> bully....but a consistent bully....who occassionally needs a good rap
> on the knuckles.
>
Or a peek under the outer layers to see why the bully is a bully }
>
> d
| |
| lovetap 2004-12-23, 10:06 pm |
| maybe he just refuses to let an insane, obsessive, stalking, spiteful
person (of either gender) tell him what to do.
ever think of that, lizzie?
| |
| lovetap 2004-12-24, 2:06 am |
| maybe he just refuses to let an insane, obsessive, stalking, spiteful
person (of either gender) tell him what to do.
ever think of that, lizzie?
| |
| lovetap 2004-12-24, 2:06 am |
| maybe he just refuses to let an insane, obsessive, stalking, spiteful
person (of either gender) define him.
ever think of that, lizzie?
| |
| sloopy 2004-12-24, 2:06 am |
| X-No-Archive: Yes
"SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>That sounds pretty patient }
yep....not true...but sounded good eh?
>Don't you think, also, that sometimes people need anger, and a target for
>hatred? I'm thinking of the guy/gal who has had a horrid day at work, then
>comes home and blasts someone to "even the scales", even if the target
>shouldn't be the target.
sure, but....I honestly think it is pathetic to come here, or anywhere
really, and blast some undeserving person with my anger, especially
when that anger was brought about by something or someone totally
unrelated......(careful, here comes a judgement....)...imho, that's
just so wrong.
I hope, that when I am angry here....or sad here, or happy, it's
because it has been brought about *from* here.
I can come here and talk about what has happened to me and be angry
about my experiences without being angry at someone here.....unless of
couse, someone begins to rag on me because I dared to relate my story
and they disagreed with some part of it....(which has *always* boggled
my mind --- how in the world can someone disagree with my personal
experiences???)
>
>And there is where I circle back around to history and "real life". I don't
>know if the behavior is a very emotional reaction to someone else here that
>I don't understand because I haven't watched the tone of the conflict
>develop, or if there's something else going on for the individual. Like a
>child who may cry out "I hate you" to a parent that is beloved sometimes
>there's a layer under the visible layer.
well....bottom line, setting aside the psychological efforts and all
that.....we're all human...and that's what it boils down to. we have
reactions, we speak out, we shut up, we yell....and perhaps it is true
that we use this place as a punching bag for all the crappy things
that have happened, or are happening.
>It's still hard to figure out who tossed the first blow, especially if it
>was struck years ago.
well...it's not hard to see who struck first in the story I gave. The
doofus did...it wasn't a mystery SQ. And besides.....nobody should
get to "hold over" anger from years ago, then pop their "loved one" on
a saturday night because she might have been looking at some
stud.....and then justify it by saying, "hey you struck first 2 years
ago."
unnacceptable behavior is unnacceptable behavior.
lemme tell ya another story.
when my current h. and I moved intogether, I was still reeling from
the effects of many many years as the bride of chucky. I was a ragin
machine. ANd one night he was tired, and I was raring to go....I
left, came home, left came home -- all very dramatic like...and he
STILL was NOT meeting my needs (haha). so as he laid in bed with me
standing in the door ragin and vomiting my held over anger....he
finally sat up and removed EAR PLUGS...and said the words that forever
changed my life....."Every time you rage at me, I feel the way you
must have felt every time your ex drew back his fist."
I was stunned. and shocked that *I* could provoke that emotion in
him...me?? ME -- my words created that feeling??? well....it rocked
my world....and I knew I had some serious work to do...and I did.
the point.....held over anger doesn't get to strike a blow when it's
convenient.....so....I can't accept allowing folks to be
crappy...here, because someone in their non-net life treated them
shabbily. (special note: the topic of held over anger is a
passionate one for me, it's how my ex would justify his
behavior......he may become enraged at me from something I "did" 3
months ago....huh????)
>That's where I can't see whose venom is "righteous"
>and whose venom is "bad behavior".
>I understand fighting fire with fire. I'm just not totally convinced.
I don't know how to always differentiate either. but, if two people
are having a conversation --- here...and it's good, or at least non
derogatory...then others chime in with backhanded barbs and innuendos
and slams....that's just venom....the only purpose for it is to
effect one of the participants negatively --- becasue they certainly
aren't contributing to the conversation.
That's not to say that there can't be several conversations on the
same topic taking place at the same time, some good, some not so good.
It always strikes me odd when a person can come into a conversation
JUST to throw a punch, then go back to their perfectly productive
conversation.
>I wasn't very clear, was I? }
>
>I think that "here" on AAR, it is easy to convince ourselves that it doesn't
>matter, that since it isn't "real life", any errors, conflicts, etc. are
>simply part of some minor game. That way hurts don't hurt as much.
that's simply not true, for many folks. It may be easy for 'some' to
convince themselves. I don't segregate aar as not part of my life.
My life is balanced and well rounded.....I work, have a home, a
husband, friends, spiritual path, net time, school --- each piece
receiving my time and energy, each piece creating the whole of my
world.
sure I could walk away from this place, just as easily as I could walk
away from work, my marriage etc......I don't see a difference. I'm
not trying to convince you or anyone...but trying to make such a
distinction between "here" and "real life", trying ot make it so
simplistic doesn't work for me. This place is full of real people,
with real issues and real emotions...just because I can't always see
their faces, doesn't me it isn't as significant....I liken it to what
folks must have felt like when the phone was first invented, or those
folks who had pen pals for 40 years before ever meeting face to
face..those people, and their worlds were real and interactive.
>The computer is more easily avoided, though. It doesn't ask for gas money,
>want time to discuss the latest girlfriend. Nor does it cry out "pay this
>or your heat gets cut off". Still, I understand what you're saying. A
>forum significantly different from one's daily life is very much like having
>a chance to live life twice and benefit from it.
yes...the computer, a piece of machinery is very easily avoided ----
but the people behind it are not. Even if one chooses to turn off the
computer, the effects of interactions with the folks here are not so
easily turned off.
>Or a peek under the outer layers to see why the bully is a bully }
it's interesting...I used to care about what made a bully a
bully....but I lost that ability long long ago, and each time I see
someone bullied , it just solidifies why I lost that ability.
bullies, inmo need to be taken down and have their smarmy little faces
rubbed in the tears of every single person they ever bullied. Bullies
engage in protracted cruelty for no other reason other than they
can.....I call bullshit on bullies every chance I get.....
and besides, bullies are big meanies and they kick dogs, and I happen
to love dogs.
d
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| |
|
| Que?
On 23 Dec 2004 19:37:35 -0800, "lovetap" <dr.lovetap@gmail.com> wrote:
>maybe he just refuses to let an insane, obsessive, stalking, spiteful
>person (of either gender) tell him what to do.
>ever think of that, lizzie?
| |
| SpiritQuest 2004-12-24, 2:06 am |
|
"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
news:0hrms0tkrteciem7dtri46n6oah9d1u34c@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 22:08:48 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
> <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> Save it. So save it. I'm not going to argue this one with you
> because there is no point. You will neither address it or consider it
> because it is a woman who is putting it out there and you refuse to
> allow a woman - any woman - to tell you what to do.
If you honestly think this is a gender issue, you're wrong. If someone told
me I need to be a little left, or right, or any direction from who I truly
am to be "correct" by their standards, I wouldn't change.
With an Israeli on my left and a Catholic on my right, neither understanding
why I don't see *their* obvious truth, I would still believe what I honestly
believe.
> Never mind that no one tried. And isn't it ironic that the very
> reason you are this way - that a woman you cared for treated you like
> shit - is the very reason you can't let one who really cares for you
> close enough for it to matter. You just turn arounjd and dump the old
> one's shit right in the new ones lap.
My life is such a beautiful thing that I doubt I could carry bitterness.
And, I have sufficient sense of decency (right or wrong) that I consider
*all* those affected by a male/female relationship. Very often there are
other innocent parties close enough to be injured. That isn't bitter. That
isn't cold. That isn't old baggage. That is simply consideration for all,
rather than a focus on self.
There is some "proper distance" when matters arise between two people unless
those two exist in a vacuum. There is no precise way to find that. It's a
matter of best guess and good faith. It's not a matter of bitterness.
>
> And I just don't have the energy this Xmas to be that lap.
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 01:50:57 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>"SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>no...not always unrealistic...sometimes reason does prevail. FOr me,
>if I've made 4598 tries at being reasonable...then I'm done.
>
>
>
>you don't? When I look back, I find that the majority of conflicts
>arise from misunderstandings...simple as that.....then, from those
>misunderstandings rise accusations, mudslinging, and all the usual and
>customary "fightin' words" stances....and no amount of gyrations will
>convince certain folks that it was a simple misunderstanding, for some
>reason, they would rather believe that anothers words were cruel and
>the harm caused was purposeful.
Maybe it isn't that they want to believe it so much as they are afraid
*not* to believe it? That if they give it another shot they could be
hurt so better to toughen the shell.
>
>agree --- if one is actually learning from mistakes...I know I have.
>But there are some here, who don't, and continue to repeat the same
>crummy behavior over and over and over....I tolerated it for a long
>time, then ignored it, then got good and pissed.....and made a vow to
>put that behavior under a spotlight every chance I got.....even if it
>is my own crappy behavior.
>
>
>nah that's not it...it's like a redneck bar on a saturday night --
>where you go because you just want to dance your wrangler clad butt
>off...but then, theres always some doofus who's had one too many
>beers, swears his woman is eyeing some other stud, and so to prove he
>is testerone worthy --- begins to whacking on his girlfriend and no
>one does a damn thing...
*nodding*
>then I step in (get a good whack to the
>shoulder in the process while being told by said doofus that I'm
>misinterpreting his behavior when I know damn good and well I'm not,
>and so I refuse to be gaslighted....) and FINALLY others step
>in.....it just takes ONE person stepping forward to say 'stop it
>shithead'........and then, others see it's ok....it's like
>munchkinland....once that first little munchkin came forward.....it
>was like a munchkin explosion...that's what happens here I think.
>
>
>
>I don't understand this question --- can you re-state?
>
>
>oh....I thought you originally made the distinction between "here"
>(aar) and "real life"...then I said hey don't do that. Now it sounds
>like we're actually agree......so let me make sure I hear you.....you
>agree that aar is not separate from real life right?
>
>
>
>oh ye of little faith....oh sure, we can walk away from the computer,
>but not the side effects. I have shed many tears, laughed
>uproariously, sat in stunned silence, reflected quietly because of the
>interactions here...... long after I turned off the computer.
It's so weird... today as I was driving I saw someone I automatically
discounted as 'only' a someone or other. Then I remembered the
exchange with Cal and said to myself, no, no one is ONLY anything.
I cannot tell you how much work I have done on myself as a result of
what I have read or said here.
> I still
>carry great advice, remember aged wisdom, or stupidity, or ickiness
>although those folks are no longer here....geode was one who gave me
>good advice and the effect of that is still with me
>today......no....the side effects do not go away with the flick of a
>switch, imho.
>
>
>sometimes..yes. and sometimes, we have a bully...not always the same
>bully....but a consistent bully....who occassionally needs a good rap
>on the knuckles.
On their hairy, dragging knuckles.
>
>
>
>d
| |
| hornpipe 2004-12-24, 2:06 am |
| On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 05:02:49 GMT, "SpiritQuest"
<spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>"Liz" <welshwop@.net > wrote in message
>news:0hrms0tkrteciem7dtri46n6oah9d1u34c@4ax.com...
>
>If you honestly think this is a gender issue, you're wrong. If someone told
>me I need to be a little left, or right, or any direction from who I truly
>am to be "correct" by their standards, I wouldn't change.
>With an Israeli on my left and a Catholic on my right, neither understanding
>why I don't see *their* obvious truth, I would still believe what I honestly
>believe.
>
>
>My life is such a beautiful thing that I doubt I could carry bitterness.
you are god, then?
>And, I have sufficient sense of decency (right or wrong) that I consider
>*all* those affected by a male/female relationship. Very often there are
>other innocent parties close enough to be injured. That isn't bitter. That
>isn't cold. That isn't old baggage. That is simply consideration for all,
>rather than a focus on self.
>
>There is some "proper distance" when matters arise between two people unless
>those two exist in a vacuum. There is no precise way to find that. It's a
>matter of best guess and good faith. It's not a matter of bitterness.
you have such a high opinion of yourself that it must be true.
yet somehow I think of you as a soul that sold itself to the military
mindset at a young age and is wrapping itself in desperate illusions
in old age
>
>
--
hornpipe
| |
|
| On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 04:28:54 GMT, sloopy <sloopy@asarian-host.net>
wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>"SpiritQuest" <spritquest@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>yep....not true...but sounded good eh?
>
>
>
>sure, but....I honestly think it is pathetic to come here, or anywhere
>really, and blast some undeserving person with my anger, especially
>when that anger was brought about by something or someone totally
>unrelated......(careful, here comes a judgement....)...imho, that's
>just so wrong.
Yes. I did that when I first got here. It took me a long time to
work through that and when I worked through it here it stopped
happening irl, too.
On the otherhand, what about when you are dealing with someone who may
never get it at all? Is it wrong then to keep blasting them for their
shit?
>I hope, that when I am angry here....or sad here, or happy, it's
>because it has been brought about *from* here.
>
>I can come here and talk about what has happened to me and be angry
>about my experiences without being angry at someone here.....unless of
>couse, someone begins to rag on me because I dared to relate my story
>and they disagreed with some part of it....(which has *always* boggled
>my mind --- how in the world can someone disagree with my personal
>experiences???)
Dismissal is one of the most potent weapons in this place.
>
>well....bottom line, setting aside the psychological efforts and all
>that.....we're all human...and that's what it boils down to. we have
>reactions, we speak out, we shut up, we yell....and perhaps it is true
>that we use this place as a punching bag for all the crappy things
>that have happened, or are happening.
>
>
>
>well...it's not hard to see who struck first in the story I gave. The
>doofus did...it wasn't a mystery SQ. And besides.....nobody should
>get to "hold over" anger from years ago, then pop their "loved one" on
>a saturday night because she might have been looking at some
>stud.....and then justify it by saying, "hey you struck first 2 years
>ago."
>
>unnacceptable behavior is unnacceptable behavior.
>
>lemme tell ya another story.
>
>when my current h. and I moved intogether, I was still reeling from
>the effects of many many years as the bride of chucky. I was a ragin
>machine. ANd one night he was tired, and I was raring to go....I
>left, came home, left came home -- all very dramatic like...and he
>STILL was NOT meeting my needs (haha). so as he laid in bed with me
>standing in the door ragin and vomiting my held over anger....he
>finally sat up and removed EAR PLUGS...and said the words that forever
>changed my life....."Every time you rage at me, I feel the way you
>must have felt every time your ex drew back his fist."
>
>
>I was stunned. and shocked that *I* could provoke that emotion in
>him...me?? ME -- my words created that feeling??? well....it rocked
>my world....and I knew I had some serious work to do...and I did.
Something very similar happened with my husband and I.
>the point.....held over anger doesn't get to strike a blow when it's
>convenient.....so....I can't accept allowing folks to be
>crappy...here, because someone in their non-net life treated them
>shabbily. (special note: the topic of held over anger is a
>passionate one for me, it's how my ex would justify his
>behavior......he may become enraged at me from something I "did" 3
>months ago....huh????)
>
>
>I don't know how to always differentiate either. but, if two people
>are having a conversation --- here...and it's good, or at least non
>derogatory...then others chime in with backhanded barbs and innuendos
>and slams....that's just venom....the only purpose for it is to
>effect one of the participants negatively --- becasue they certainly
>aren't contributing to the conversation.
>
>That's not to say that there can't be several conversations on the
>same topic taking place at the same time, some good, some not so good.
>It always strikes me odd when a person can come into a conversation
>JUST to throw a punch, then go back to their perfectly productive
>conversation.
>
>
>that's simply not true, for many folks. It may be easy for 'some' to
>convince themselves. I don't segregate aar as not part of my life.
>My life is balanced and well rounded.....I work, have a home, a
>husband, friends, spiritual path, net time, school --- each piece
>receiving my time and energy, each piece creating the whole of my
>world.
>
>sure I could walk away from this place, just as easily as I could walk
>away from work, my marriage etc......I don't see a difference. I'm
>not trying to convince you or anyone...but trying to make such a
>distinction between "here" and "real life", trying ot make it so
>simplistic doesn't work for me. This place is full of real people,
>with real issues and real emotions...just because I can't always see
>their faces, doesn't me it isn't as significant....I liken it to what
>folks must have felt like when the phone was first invented, or those
>folks who had pen pals for 40 years before ever meeting face to
>face..those people, and their worlds were real and interactive.
>
>
>yes...the computer, a piece of machinery is very easily avoided ----
>but the people behind it are not. Even if one chooses to turn off the
>computer, the effects of interactions with the folks here are not so
>easily turned off.
>
>
>
>it's interesting...I used to care about what made a bully a
>bully....but I lost that ability long long ago, and each time I see
>someone bullied , it just solidifies why I lost that ability.
>
>bullies, inmo need to be taken down and have their smarmy little faces
>rubbed in the tears of every single person they ever bullied. Bullies
>engage in protracted cruelty for no other reason other than they
>can.....I call bullshit on bullies every chance I get.....
>
>and besides, bullies are big meanies and they kick dogs, and I happen
>to love dogs.
>
>d
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