HIV Aids - Dr. Proves Immune Product on HIV & Cancer

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Dr. Proves Immune Product on HIV & Cancer

Immune Guy

2005-10-11, 12:50 am

Hi,

I recently came across a product that really caught me by surprise. I
have always taken supplements of all kinds to boost my immune system
for various reasons. We have all probably battled with what to buy from
Health Food Stores in regards to upplements. I did learn that I did not
see one supplement that could say anything about what it was proven to
cure or get results on.

The product I found has patents in almost every country and is the
culmination of 20 years of research at the world-renowned McGill
University, in conjunction with the Montreal General Hospital, by Dr.
Gustavo Bounous MD and his research team. The head of Research now is
considered the number one in the world from Germany in Immune System
research ie: Dr. Wulf Droge - The Dr's involved have studied and
researched all around the world and proved the concepts of their
treatment and the benefits of this product before they created it. They
can claim it boosted the immune systems in HIV/AIDS patients and Cancer
patients making tremendous differnces in their lives.

Read for yourself - even the Government of Canada has listed their
information on a government website. They are listed in the U.S.
Physicians' Desk Reference (PDR) and that is not easy to do. In the USA
the product is reimburseable through the medical system.

Here is the website: www.naturallydynamic.com

Hopefully this is helpfull information.

Bill

GMCarter

2005-10-11, 11:00 am

On 10 Oct 2005 17:59:47 -0700, "Immune Guy"
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I recently came across a product that really caught me by surprise. I
>have always taken supplements of all kinds to boost my immune system
>for various reasons.

Ah--boosting the immune system is NOT necessarily entirely a good
idea. While with HIV disease part of the immune system is depleted
(e.g., CD4+ decline), hyperactivity in immune function may be what
drives the loss of T cells.

The product you're talking about I believe IS a good product. It is a
fraction of milk, which is comprised of casein and whey. The whey
proteins have a fair amount of cysteine, the amino acid most needed
for glutathione replenishment and to make up the massive loss of
sulfur seen by people with HIV as discovered by Droge's group. Bounous
et al. showed that something as simple (and cheap) as whey protein can
offset the failure to thrive seen in kids with HIV.

You can obtain whey inexpensively. I use it daily. Crap like
Immunocal, tho, was introduced as multi-level marketing at an
outrageous price. Complete, total ripoff.

George M. Carter

Immune Guy

2005-10-11, 11:00 am

Hi George,

You seem quite knowledgeable and it is nice to see an almost possitive
feedback. You are familiar with Dr. Wulf Droge...you should become
familiar with what he proved in 1988 in regards to whey protein from
Denmark. It was shipped over seas to him..he worked with it and worked
with it..could not get any more of the results that he had been getting
and got discouraged until he figured out that the Cysteine was so
sensitive to heat & humidity that in transit to him the Cysteine quality
was destroyed...therefore realising that it was critical to develop an
extraction process & packaging process that would ensure the quality of
the whey protein isolate so it would have some real Cysteine in it when
consumed by the customer.

Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a
credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system. The
product you are currently buying pays the wages of the manufacturer, the
markup and wages associated to the wholesaler, the wages and the markup
of the distributor..etc. It is really all the same from the point of
view of what the original cost was and what we pay at the retail level.
One difference is I get to personally explain this product where other
ones will sit on a shelf confussing consumers as they look for help.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-11, 11:00 am

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 11:22:24 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Hi George,
>
>You seem quite knowledgeable and it is nice to see an almost possitive
>feedback. You are familiar with Dr. Wulf Droge...you should become
>familiar with what he proved in 1988 in regards to whey protein from
>Denmark. It was shipped over seas to him..he worked with it and worked
>with it..could not get any more of the results that he had been getting
>and got discouraged until he figured out that the Cysteine was so
>sensitive to heat & humidity that in transit to him the Cysteine quality
>was destroyed...therefore realising that it was critical to develop an
>extraction process & packaging process that would ensure the quality of
>the whey protein isolate so it would have some real Cysteine in it when
>consumed by the customer.

Excuse me--but I don't believe this. I know Droge. If you have
citations or other evidence to support this claim, go for it.

I'm sure there can be problems with heat but a variety of products
provide cold-processed material. You needn't pay much for it.

And until I see evidence to the contrary, I do not believe that the
cysteine bound in whey proteins is going to selectively degrade
without the whole batch turning to crap.

Do feel free to provide the evidence.

>Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a
>credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system.

Bullshit. It's a XXXXed up marketing technique that jacks the price up
for the end user outrageously. It's called a pyramid scheme--and they
usually collapse.

George M. Carter

Brian Mailman

2005-10-11, 12:50 pm

GMCarter wrote:

>
> Bullshit. It's a XXXXed up marketing technique that jacks the price up
> for the end user outrageously. It's called a pyramid scheme--and they
> usually collapse.

No, MLM isn't *quite* a pyramid/ponzi scheme, but you're right about the
prices being jacked up. Every level has... hmmm... "value added" to it.

B/

David Canzi -- non-mailable

2005-10-11, 5:50 pm

In article <QfN2f.3$D42.450@news.uswest.net>,
Immune Guy <immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:
>Another comment about MLM. It seems to throw people off from a
>credibility point of view. It is simply a distribution system.

I went once to a kitchenware party, from which 1/10 of the proceeds
were to be given to an AIDS charity. The first, and longest, part
of the sales pitch was a talk about the benefits of joining up as
a distributor. The product was secondary. Distributing a product
is the pretext for, not the purpose of, MLM.

The purpose of MLM is MLM.

--
David Canzi "I am not denying anything." -- Celia Farber

GMCarter

2005-10-11, 5:50 pm

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 18:28:52 +0000 (UTC),
dmcanzi@remulak.ads.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi -- non-mailable) wrote:

....
>The purpose of MLM is MLM.

marys who love mary?

and brian: thanks for the correction!

Immune Guy

2005-10-11, 5:50 pm

Hi All,

Well to my friend with the english and etiquette issues please refrain
from the foul language if you intend to demonstrate any intelligence
because you do seem somewhat intelligent.

In regards to the comment about knowing Dr. Droge...not sure what that
proves but here's the link to his patent information which clearly
refernces the degredation of the whey in transit and the need to control
heat & humidity. - this page is pretty clear about what Dr Droge found
and believed..and he is one of the most respected in the world for
Immune System research.
http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/cache/gif/...21.s0.25.r0.gif

And of course in regards to the MLM aspect, you can go to an importer
and see that you can buy a tool for $1 from Taiwan that the hardware
store retails for $10...and even the $1 is marked up from 50 cents or
less because they are a middle man. In another instance I personally
know someone in the hemp business and the raw oil they press for
approximately $1 gets retailed for about $20...now if that isn't worse
then what you are describing about MLM I don't know what is.

Hopefully I have respectfully and intelligently answered all of the
rebuttals however I do look forward to any more if you feel there is
anything left to debate.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-11, 5:50 pm

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:34:24 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>Well to my friend with the english and etiquette issues please refrain
>from the foul language if you intend to demonstrate any intelligence
>because you do seem somewhat intelligent.

Honey, this is misc.health.aids. If you can't take the heat, scram.

I shouldn't even bother with you because you're basically just selling
stuff here.

>In regards to the comment about knowing Dr. Droge...not sure what that
>proves but here's the link to his patent information which clearly
>refernces the degredation of the whey in transit and the need to control
>heat & humidity. - this page is pretty clear about what Dr Droge found
>and believed..and he is one of the most respected in the world for
>Immune System research.
>http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/cache/gif/...21.s0.25.r0.gif

Droge isn't on this patent.
http://patents1.ic.gc.ca/details?pa...471&language=EN

At any rate, this is a patent application. Now, it does seem
reasonable that a modestly denatured whey product might have some
cysteine sulfhydryl bonds liberated and they might then rebind
elsewhere. But I'd prefer some clinical data than a patent
application.

And again, there are a variety of products available that use
processing methods that retain the protein conformation.

>And of course in regards to the MLM aspect, you can go to an importer
>and see that you can buy a tool for $1 from Taiwan that the hardware
>store retails for $10...and even the $1 is marked up from 50 cents or
>less because they are a middle man. In another instance I personally
>know someone in the hemp business and the raw oil they press for
>approximately $1 gets retailed for about $20...now if that isn't worse
>then what you are describing about MLM I don't know what is.

This is disingenuous horsepucky. (Is that nicer than saying it's
XXXXing horsesht?)

Market competition means one can obtain the stuff less expensively.
Yes, you can indeed sell stuff at any price you like. Doesn't mean
people will buy it. And I heartily recommend that they do not if it's
more than say $20 for 908 g.

>Hopefully I have respectfully and intelligently answered all of the
>rebuttals however I do look forward to any more if you feel there is
>anything left to debate.
>
>Bill Fligg
>Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
>www.naturallydynamic.com

You link doesn't work. How much do you sell the stuff for?

George M. Carter

Immune Guy

2005-10-11, 5:50 pm

Hi GM,

My link was down but is back up now.

In regards to that link..the patent is in Dr. Bounous's name who is
another very credible Dr & PHd however at this point Dr. Wulf Droge is
head of research for Immunotec and confers that information & research
or he would not be listed as one of their directors on their website.

In regards products you are familiar with that "really
work"..ditto..where is the research backing the product you refer to?
Immunotec has gone to a lot of expense to back theirs up with research
and credible Dr's.

With respect to the value of things...I guess if you feel you would
rather pay $2/day for coffee and feel that $2/day is too much for your
immune system then I guess I am in the wrong place...and your right I am
in the business however only because I thought the product, research and
company was amazing. A 300g box which has 30 x 10g pouches of which you
would take one per day is $60 Canadian or approximately $50 US.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-11, 5:50 pm

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:04:26 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Hi GM,
>
snip
>A 300g box which has 30 x 10g pouches of which you
>would take one per day is $60 Canadian or approximately $50 US.

That's an obscene price. I would recommend people not buy your
product. Sounds like the same crap as Immunocal.

George M. Carter

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 12:50 am

You weren't paying attention to the "why" part...it costs that much
because it is not the same as anything you can buy otherwise...and it is
Immunical..however in Canada called HMS 90.

You didn't answer my question about all the research I can read and the
Dr's that are well known internationally for Immune research associated
to the product you take. Or did the website say it is good..and you were
happy with that? Your pretty hard on my product considering you don't
have the facts about anything else.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-12, 12:50 am

Immune Guy wrote:

> With respect to the value of things...I guess if you feel you would
> rather pay $2/day for coffee and feel that $2/day is too much for your
> immune system then I guess I am in the wrong place...

Shame on you. Shame on YOU. That's preying on the fears of desparate
people to make a buck. AND to try to get free advertising to do so.
Your as bad as the cancer quacks.

SHAME. ON. YOU.

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 12:50 am

Brian,

Shame on me...your kidding. I haven't said anything here to cause fear.
I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference.

I thought this would be a group looking for facts that would make a
difference. However you seem like you want to beat me for taking the
time to point out a few things. See if I care...good luck..this is my
last post here.

By the way..the shame on you stuff still didn't answer why you so
diligently protect the other cysteine products even though you can't
produce a fraction of the research I can about mine. It is all about the
money like you said and the truth is some people are too cheap to help
themselves because they can't justify the money...but spend it elsewhere
foolishly. Produce the facts on other Cysteine products that actually
have research behind them with Dr's & PHd's otherwise you are all taking
affordable placebos.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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David Canzi -- non-mailable

2005-10-12, 12:50 am

In article <AdW2f.84$D42.12339@news.uswest.net>,
Immune Guy <immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:
>And of course in regards to the MLM aspect, you can go to an importer
>and see that you can buy a tool for $1 from Taiwan that the hardware
>store retails for $10...and even the $1 is marked up from 50 cents or
>less because they are a middle man. In another instance I personally
>know someone in the hemp business and the raw oil they press for
>approximately $1 gets retailed for about $20...now if that isn't worse
>then what you are describing about MLM I don't know what is.

You can't excuse something bad by pointing out something worse.

--
David Canzi "I am not denying anything." -- Celia Farber

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 12:50 am

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 12:50 am

OK...your Cysteine products are placebos with no Cysteine value in them
because they have not been proven in any research..is that better by
making a direct comparison to an unreal ripoff? Much better now..it is
very relavent. You buy a supplement for $20 that has no proof of any
kind.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:27:29 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>You weren't paying attention to the "why" part...it costs that much
>because it is not the same as anything you can buy otherwise...and it is
>Immunical..however in Canada called HMS 90.

LOL...gosh, does calling it HMS90 make it all that more exciting and
mysterious?

Does it still turn into a cross between chewing gum and clay?

>You didn't answer my question about all the research I can read and the
>Dr's that are well known internationally for Immune research associated
>to the product you take. Or did the website say it is good..and you were
>happy with that? Your pretty hard on my product considering you don't
>have the facts about anything else.

I'm not about to talk about other products because I'm not about to
spam, like you're doing. However, there is one abstract, below, that
shows that Immunocrap ain't all that.

I'm hard on your product because its use is couched in
pseudoscientific claptrap to try to justify an outrageous price for a
fraction of milk.

George M. Carter

**
Micke P, Beeh KM, Buhl R. Effects of long-term supplementation with
whey proteins on plasma glutathione levels of HIV-infected patients.
Eur J Nutr. 2002 Feb;41(1):12-8.

Pulmonary Division III, Medical Department, Mainz university Hospital,
Germany. p.micke@3-med.klinik.uni-mainz.de

BACKGROUND: HIV infection is characterized by an enhanced oxidant
burden and a systemic deficiency of the tripeptide glutathione (GSH),
a major antioxidant. The semi-essential amino acid cysteine is the
main source of the free sulfhydryl group of GSH and limits its
synthesis. Whey proteins are rich in cysteine as well as in GSH
precursor peptides. AIM OF THE STUDY: In order to evaluate the effects
of whey supplementation on plasma GSH levels, HIV-infected patients
were treated with whey proteins for a period of six months. METHODS:
In a double blind clinical trial, 30 patients were randomized to a
daily dose of 45 g whey proteins of either Protectamin (Fresenius
Kabi, Germany) or Immunocal (Immunotec, Europe) for 2 weeks. Eighteen
patients (16 male, 42 +/- 9.4 yr, 249 +/- 99 CD4+ lymphocytes/l)
continued the trial with a daily dose of 45 g of Protectamin for six
months. RESULTS: Pre-therapy, total plasma GSH levels (Protectamin:
1.92 +/- 0.6 microM; Immunocal: 1.99 +/- 0.9 microM) were less than
normal (2.64 +/- 0.7 microM, p = 0.03). After two weeks of whey
protein supplementation, plasma total GSH levels increased in the
Protectamin group by 44 +/- 56% (2.79 +/- 1.1 microM, p = 0.004),
while the difference in the Immunocal group did not reach significance
(+24.5 +/- 59 %, 2.51 +/- 1.48 microM, p = 0.43). Consequently, all
patients continuing the trial were openly switched to Protectamin.
After six months, total GSH plasma levels were still significantly
elevated compared to baseline (day 1: 1.95 +/- 0.8 microM vs. month 1:
2.18 +/- 0.8 microM, p = 0.19; month 3: 2.39 +/- 0.9 microM, p =
0.056; month 6: 2.47 +/- 0.8 microM, p = 0.033). Body weight, T-cell
counts, and other clinical parameters did not change. The most common
mild side effect was intestinal disturbance; severe adverse events did
not occur. CONCLUSION: Supplementation with whey proteins persistently
increased plasma glutathione levels in patients with advanced
HIV-infection. The treatment was well tolerated. A larger long-term
trial is clearly warranted to evaluate whether this positive influence
on the glutathione metabolism translates into a more favorable course
of the disease.

GMCarter

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 00:46:24 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Brian,
>
>Shame on me...your kidding. I haven't said anything here to cause fear.
>I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference.

To your wallet.

XXXX you. People can buy better whey for much less.

Believe me, I think the data are quite good on it. It is an
intervention that could be made available globally. I use it. Not your
brand of outrageously overpriced crap. And it's that kind of
despicable profiteering--whether it's supplement sales or--albeit MUCH
worse--pharma phucks--the result is the same. Greed kills.

George M. Carter

GMCarter

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 01:06:28 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>OK...your Cysteine products are placebos with no Cysteine value in them

Your shit doesn't work that well and it turns into XXXX gummy cement
when mixed.

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

GM,

Your funny. I have to admit you seem to have a sense of humour.

I read the information about the research done with Protectamin and
Immunocal. They both had very stong effects however Protectamin out
performed Immunocal by quite a bit in that study. That seems very
impressive. I tried diligently to find Protectamin and it seems to be
made or was made by Nature's Way however every link on the net
associated to the research or product seems to be down. I can not find a
place where I can actually get a price and read more about the company
that makes it. Please provide me with a link to this supper product.
Otherwise the research only used these two products...very impressive
from Immunocal/HMS 90's perspective because it did work and they did
narrow their research down to the two best possibilities. Now I just
can't find out how to buy the number 1 - Protectamin

In regards to Cysteine and Cystine. It is my understanding that 2
molecules of Cysteine bond to form Cystine and likewise Cystine when
heated cleaves apart into 2 molecules of Cysteine...if you get Cysteine
in the blood stream before it gets into the cells it is somewhat toxic
and causes nauseau..etc. However if you can get Cystine to deliver
iteself all the way to the cells then it will cleave apart to Cysteine
in the cell where it is needed. In the process of heat or humidity most
Whey products which have high levels of Cystine become products full of
Cysteine..even while they sit in your cupboards or while you are
blending them.

Athough I am a distributor of this product you have to admit I am trying
to be as informative and open as possible and this dialogue is likely
helpfull to others in the group who are not familiar with
Cystine/Cystine and how it helps creat the very much needed Glutathione
in your body.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

Hi Again,

With further investigation about this Protectamin I found the real
report on the study not your slanted one - here it is from AEGIS - Aids
Education Global Information System -
http://www.aegis.com/news/catie/200...-N20010504.html
Looks like Immunocal/HMS 90 is highley researched, respected and is 2nd
to none. At best equal to one other product if I can find it.
Where did you get your article from? Nature's Way? LOL
-------------------------------------------------

Whey to go! German study finds whey protein supplement boosts
antioxidants

Sean Hosein
CATIE News: May 22, 2001

------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

(What's new)

The immune system needs a large amount of high-quality protein every day
to perform repairs and make new T-cells, hormones and antioxidant
enzymes. These enzymes help to protect cells from the damaging effects
of highly active molecules called "free-radicals." Research suggests
that HIV infection increases the demand for antioxidants, a demand that
the body is unable to meet on its own.

To increase the body's ability to make antioxidants, researchers have
been conducting studies on people with HIV, giving them supplements of
high-quality protein called "whey protein." Made from cow's milk, whey
protein is a combination of proteins that are easy to digest.

For their two-week study, German researchers enrolled 30 HIV positive
subjects (5 female, 25 male) who had an average of 221 CD4+ cells.
Subjects took 15 grams of whey protein powder three times daily, for a
total of 45 grams per day. They mixed the powder in milk, yoghurt or
buttermilk. Researchers gave subjects one of two brands of whey protein:

Immunocal (made by Immunotech in Vandreuil, Quebec, Canada)
Protectamin (made by Fresenius Kabi in Bad Hamburg, Germany)
When the results of both treatments were analysed together, researchers
found that on average, levels of the body's major antioxidant, GSH
(glutathione), increased by about 32% after two weeks in all subjects.
The study was not designed to find out if one brand of whey protein was
better than the other. Long-term studies are needed to confirm and
extend these findings.

Notes on brand names
Given the many brands of protein powder available, choosing one is not
easy. We encourage interested readers to develop a relationship with
knowledgeable staff at your local health food store. These people can
answer your questions about different brands and prices of whey protein
supplements.

European Journal of Clinical Investigation 2001;31(2):171-178

20000522
CATE-N20010504

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:22:26 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>GM,
>
>Your funny. I have to admit you seem to have a sense of humour.

Gosh golly, I'm so flattered and overwhelmed that your august
personage has deined to recognize my sense of humor!

>I read the information about the research done with Protectamin and
>Immunocal. They both had very stong effects however Protectamin out
>performed Immunocal by quite a bit in that study.

You bet: "After two weeks of whey
protein supplementation, plasma total GSH levels increased in the
Protectamin group by 44 +/- 56% (2.79 +/- 1.1 microM, p = 0.004),
while the difference in the Immunocal group did not reach significance
(+24.5 +/- 59 %, 2.51 +/- 1.48 microM, p = 0.43)."

>Please provide me with a link to this supper product.

Nope. Not interested in selling or promoting protectamin.

Point is, if intracellular gluathione production is what you want,
N-acetylcysteine works fine. So does alpha lipoic acid, silymarin and
probably even hot-processed whey. I use a cold-processed form. In
fact, I use all those agents.

Don't need Immunocrap or its MLM-boosted pricing scam.

George M. Carter

GMCarter

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 12:30:33 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Hi Again,
>
>With further investigation about this Protectamin I found the real
>report on the study not your slanted one - here it is from AEGIS - Aids
>Education Global Information System -
>http://www.aegis.com/news/catie/200...-N20010504.html
>Looks like Immunocal/HMS 90 is highley researched, respected and is 2nd
>to none.

LOL. In your fantasy world. I know Sean. He did NOT say anything of
the sort. Indeed, as you can see, he wrote:

"Given the many brands of protein powder available, choosing one is
not easy. We encourage interested readers to develop a relationship
with knowledgeable staff at your local health food store. These people
can answer your questions about different brands and prices of whey
protein supplements."

The abstract I posted was from PubMed. It is not the same as the one
Sean reviewed but rather a later one: Micke P, Beeh KM, Buhl R.
Effects of long-term supplementation with whey proteins on plasma
glutathione levels of HIV-infected patients. Eur J Nutr. 2002
Feb;41(1):12-18.

George M. Carter

>-------------------------------------------------
>
>Whey to go! German study finds whey protein supplement boosts
>antioxidants
>
>Sean Hosein
>CATIE News: May 22, 2001
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>
>(What's new)
>
>The immune system needs a large amount of high-quality protein every day
>to perform repairs and make new T-cells, hormones and antioxidant
>enzymes. These enzymes help to protect cells from the damaging effects
>of highly active molecules called "free-radicals." Research suggests
>that HIV infection increases the demand for antioxidants, a demand that
>the body is unable to meet on its own.
>
>To increase the body's ability to make antioxidants, researchers have
>been conducting studies on people with HIV, giving them supplements of
>high-quality protein called "whey protein." Made from cow's milk, whey
>protein is a combination of proteins that are easy to digest.
>
>For their two-week study, German researchers enrolled 30 HIV positive
>subjects (5 female, 25 male) who had an average of 221 CD4+ cells.
>Subjects took 15 grams of whey protein powder three times daily, for a
>total of 45 grams per day. They mixed the powder in milk, yoghurt or
>buttermilk. Researchers gave subjects one of two brands of whey protein:
>
>Immunocal (made by Immunotech in Vandreuil, Quebec, Canada)
>Protectamin (made by Fresenius Kabi in Bad Hamburg, Germany)
>When the results of both treatments were analysed together, researchers
>found that on average, levels of the body's major antioxidant, GSH
>(glutathione), increased by about 32% after two weeks in all subjects.
>The study was not designed to find out if one brand of whey protein was
>better than the other. Long-term studies are needed to confirm and
>extend these findings.
>
>Notes on brand names
>Given the many brands of protein powder available, choosing one is not
>easy. We encourage interested readers to develop a relationship with
>knowledgeable staff at your local health food store. These people can
>answer your questions about different brands and prices of whey protein
>supplements.
>
>European Journal of Clinical Investigation 2001;31(2):171-178
>
>20000522
>CATE-N20010504
>

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 10:49 am

GM,

Lets see the link to where I can buy Protectamin? Still don't see the
specks on this product or where I can buy it?

I can see I should only deal with one issue at at time here so I can
ensure to at least get this question answered.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-12, 1:15 pm

Immune Guy wrote:

> Brian,
>
> Shame on me...your kidding.

Not in the least.

> I haven't said anything here to cause fear.

Oh no.... just using someone's immune system as a hook.

> I have only introduced some facts that could make a difference.

As George said... to your wallet.

I have a rare disability. I'm totally insensitive to market-speak,
except it causes me blinding migraines when someone blats it.

> I thought this would be a group looking for facts that would make a
> difference. However you seem like you want to beat me for taking the
> time to point out a few things.

No, no one wanted to 'beat you' until you started the even harder sell.
What was done was actually a civil discussion on the merits of the
product you're attempting to get free ad space for.

> See if I care...good luck..this is my last post here.

Just like our pet farmboy's last post, I imagine.

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-12, 5:50 pm

Brian,

As I said...I am simply asking for the link to a site where I can see
Protectamin listed for sale, the info on the company that makes it..etc.

I am more then interested to accept defeat and respect your
point..however please show me the real product. So I can be educated.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Immune Guy

2005-10-13, 10:50 am

Hi All,

I have found out why no one is telling me where to buy Protectamin. You
can't buy it. I asked the Vice-President of Immunotec (John Moslon) to
comment on this situation and here is his response:
---------------------
This study was initiated to discredit Immunocal by a company with which
we used to have a relationship.

As per our contractual right we chose not to continue with them.

This study goes against all our previous work – see attached.

The statistical process used is flawed.

As such I would disregard it.

In closing it is interesting that such a promising product was never
launched onto the market by the said company.

Regards
John Molson

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-13, 5:50 pm

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:18:39 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

snip
>As such I would disregard it.

Of course he would. He's a crook.

>
>Regards
>John Molson

He should go back to selling beer to lugnutz rather than ripping off
people with cancer and AIDS.

George M. Carter

Immune Guy

2005-10-13, 5:50 pm

George,

What a childish reply. Just tell me where I can buy Protectamin. That
has been your only rebutle of any credibility. Now you can't even tell
me where to buy it because you can't.

The company in question wanted to have the marketing rights to Immunocal
for Europe "FRESENIUS-KABI MEDICAL"..the deal went by the wayside when
companies merged and they were dropped. Since they lost their oppotunity
to market the product they twisted the research thinking they were going
to launch Protectamin but never did. Now why wouldn't they want to sell
such a great product?

I have received extensive reseach which I will post soon discrediting
the results. I want to review it carefully so I understand it clearly.

By the way..on bankrupt.com I found this about the parent corportation
for FRESENIOUS-KABI - I Checked and they both have the same exact
address so it is the same company. Nice bunch..I trust their research.

FRESENIUS MEDICAL: U.S. Unit Faces Criminal Investigation
---------------------------------------------------------
The wholly owned subsidiary of Fresenius Medical Care AG,
Fresenius Medical Care Holdings Inc., received on April 1, 2005 a
subpoena from the U.S. Department of Justice, Eastern District of
Missouri in St. Louis. The subpoena requires production of a
broad range of documents relating to the Company's operations,
including documents related to, among other things, clinical
quality programs, business development activities, medical
director compensation and physician relations, joint ventures and
our anemia management program. The subpoena covers the period
from December 1, 1996 through the present.

The subpoena was issued in connection with a joint civil and
criminal investigation of allegations against the Company. The
Company intends to cooperate with the government's investigation.
To the knowledge of the Company, the government has not initiated
legal proceedings against the Company at this time, and it is not
possible to predict whether proceedings might be initiated or
when the investigation may be concluded.

Counsel for the Company had an initial conversation with the
United States Attorney's Office, Eastern District of Missouri, on
Tuesday April 5, 2005 to begin discussions related to this
investigation. The Company intends to meet with representatives
of the government to review the government's priorities and the
production of responsive documents.

Ben Lipps, Chief Executive Officer of Fresenius Medical Care,
commented: "We understand and respect that the government has the
right and responsibility to investigate allegations or concerns.
We have commented many times before on our pride in our global
team's commitment to quality and compliance. In light of our
system of internal controls and the procedures we follow under
our corporate compliance program and the Corporate Integrity
Agreement, I am confident of our position on these issues and
other regulatory compliance matters. We look forward to
reviewing these extensive compliance processes which we have
adopted."

Fresenius AG (Frankfurt Stock Exchange: FME, FME3) (NYSE: FMS,
FMS-p), holds a majority interest in Fresenius Medical Care's
ordinary capital.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-14, 12:51 am

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 21:58:58 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>George,
>
>What a childish reply. Just tell me where I can buy Protectamin. That
>has been your only rebutle of any credibility. Now you can't even tell
>me where to buy it because you can't.

Because dearest, I don't give a shit about Protectamin.

Immune Guy

2005-10-14, 12:51 am

OK...no point to this anymore.

Protectamin was your big point about how our product was so highly
priced and couldn't even stand up as good as Protectamin...which I
presumed was much cheaper by the nature of your point..however it is
non-existant. Which makes your point non-existant.

I guess we can drop this since there really isn't anything left to the
argument other then you think our product is too expensive although it
is the only one proven to work from any research by brand that is
currently available.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-14, 5:50 pm

Immune Guy wrote:

> I guess we can drop this since there really isn't anything left to the
> argument other then you think our product is too expensive although it
> is the only one proven to work from any research by brand that is
> currently available.

BS. The "by brand" wasn't part of the original statement. It was that
whey-based products are more achievable at a less expensive price.

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-14, 5:50 pm

Sure...I can sell you some of the drippings from cheese curd really
cheap if you want.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-15, 12:49 pm

Immune Guy wrote:

> Sure...I can sell you some of the drippings from cheese curd really
> cheap if you want.

Anything to make a buck off the ill and/or desparate, huh?

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-15, 12:49 pm

Brian,

You sit quiet don't say much all through it and let GM do all the
arguing and then when you figure he has nothing left to debate you throw
in the money thing. It is possible that you spend more money then you
need to trying to save money because you waist it on cheaper products
that are not proven.

In regards to the ill thing..that is a pathetic comment. I have spent
thousands of dollars in health food stores trying to deal with my own
health issues. I don't have HIV but I do have things that interfere wiht
my every day life like extreme dissyness..Dr.'s can't figure it out.
Irritable Bowl Syndrome..Dr's can't fix it.. which is a real drag. High
blood pressure..they want me to take drugs. Extreme anxiety at
times..again they want me to take drugs. Allergic reactions to things
that wouldn't bother you probably and more. So don't give me that story
about making money off the ill anymore. I found a product, it makes me
feel better, the research is better then anything I have ever seen in my
life and I have checked into almost everything..so I am excited about it
and yes I do want to sell it for many reasons. Yes, one of those reasons
is because I have to make a living just like you and I would rather do
it by helping people with something I believe in. I thought the research
on this product and HIV results were outstanding so I brought the
information here.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-16, 12:49 pm

Immune Guy wrote:

> Brian,
>
> You sit quiet don't say much all through it and let GM do all the
> arguing and then when you figure he has nothing left to debate you throw
> in the money thing.

Google on "attack the messenger."

Sorry, your story doesn't impress me. btw, weren't you dropping all
this? Or are you as hypotcritical as our pet farmboy?

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-16, 5:49 pm

Brian,

I respond to people so if you stop initiating a need for a reply then I
am done.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-17, 12:49 am

Immune Guy wrote:

> Brian,
>
> I respond to people so if you stop initiating a need for a reply then I
> am done.

"But MAWWWWwWMMMMMMMMM... he MADE me do it!!!"

You were done the minute the minute you started preying on the ill and
desparate.

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-17, 12:49 am

Well Brian you have pretty much summed up everything with that comment.
Anyone with intelligence will see how bizare your behaviour is..and each
time you post that crap it keeps raising my info to the top again for
everyone to read...so thanks..keep it up.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-17, 10:50 am

On Sun, 16 Oct 2005 23:43:41 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Well Brian you have pretty much summed up everything with that comment.
>Anyone with intelligence will see how bizare your behaviour is..and each
>time you post that crap it keeps raising my info to the top again for
>everyone to read...so thanks..keep it up.

LOL. You think this is good for business? No wonder Immunocrap's sales
are plummeting.

Immune Guy

2005-10-17, 10:50 am

They aren't plummeting actually..they are sky rocketing...company is
doing over $30 million/yr in sales..built a new 35,000 SqFt building and
are debt free...hmmm...sounds like there are a few people out there who
believe the product works.

By the way thanks for taking me to the top of the newsgroup again.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-17, 12:49 pm

Immune Guy wrote:
> Well Brian you have pretty much summed up everything with that comment.
> Anyone with intelligence will see how bizare your behaviour is..and each
> time you post that crap it keeps raising my info to the top again for
> everyone to read...so thanks..keep it up.

You say a spotlight...others would say a target.

How many sick people have you fleeced today?

B/

Immune Guy

2005-10-17, 12:49 pm

Back to the top of the newsgroup I go again

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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GMCarter

2005-10-17, 5:50 pm

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:49:36 GMT, Immune Guy
<immunotec@naturallydynamic.com> wrote:

>Back to the top of the newsgroup I go again

You win! top of the Immunocrap shitpile!

Brian Mailman

2005-10-17, 5:50 pm

Immune Guy wrote:

> Back to the top of the newsgroup I go again

Weren't you leaving? Didn't you say you were finished with this group?
Certainly a person who wants to make money off the ill and desparate
wouldn't be a hypocrite as well?

btw, you might want to research "Briebart Index" for your childish
mouthings about "top of the group."

B/

Death

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

"Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message
>
> You were done the minute the minute you started preying on the ill and
> desparate.

Must you lisp in print ?

Brian Mailman

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

Death wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message
>
> Must you lisp in print ?

I don't have the same issues you do.

B/

Death

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

"Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message
> Death wrote:
>
>
> I don't have the same issues you do.
>
the minute the minute,......... ah where was I,............ oh yeah, ill and (desperate)
That is the effects of aids not pussy so why would you have the same issues as I ?

Brian Mailman

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

Death wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message
> the minute the minute,......... ah where was I,............ oh yeah,
> ill and (desperate) That is the effects of aids not pussy so why
> would you have the same issues as I ?

So, when you lie to yourself who's the one getting deceived?

B/

Death

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

"Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message

>
> So, when you lie to yourself who's the one getting deceived?
>
I don't have to lie to myself, or anyone else for that matter.
Here I am, open and above board for anyone to disagree with.

My opinions are stated clear enough even for you to understand.

I don't hide behind childish phrases and make believe lines.
If it helps you sleep at night to live in denial, kewl.
Just don't pretend others have to live that way too.

Immune Guy

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

Brian,

I have no idea what you are talking about at this point. You are
clipping out quotes it seems and commenting on them however they are
your quotes and not mine.

I am done here. It Doesn't matter to me at this point if you are not
interested and I don't want to waist any more time with name calling and
foolishness.

I take things seriously. I thought I was bringing info here that would
be usefull...you say I only wanted to make money and prey on ill people.
If you believe that is what I am all about then really...I am done here.
I wish you luck and good health.

Bill Fligg
Dynamic Enterprises Ltd.
www.naturallydynamic.com

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Brian Mailman

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

Death wrote:

> I don't hide behind childish phrases and make believe lines.
> If it helps you sleep at night to live in denial, kewl.

Hey, I'm not the one pretending to be straight.

B/

Death

2005-10-20, 5:53 pm

"Brian Mailman" <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message

> Death wrote:
>
>
> Hey, I'm not the one pretending to be straight.
>
Another good example, but it really wasn't necessary.