HIV Aids - Statins may slow down aids virus. Or not.....

Author

Statins may slow down aids virus. Or not.....

fresh~horses

2004-08-19, 7:06 am

Salut Gentlemen

I looked around. Seems mostly like gentlemen here. Hiiiii
Georgie~~~<smile>.

I want to know what you think of this study. Because I took statins
and was very injured by them. You see they cause mitochondrial
myopathy, peripheral neuropathy, cognitive adverse effect including
transient global ammnesia, short term memory loss and aphasia;
pancreatitis and gall bladder disease and a tone more bad stuff, and
are thought to cause an auto-immune hepatitis and lupus.

But hey pharma doesn't give up easy, and noting people were being
slain by these auto immune kinds of things when taking them, decided
to make lemonade, so to speak, and funded lotsa a studies on just how
golly gee auto-immune could be good for us. So now statins are touted
as possible immunosuppressants for organ transplants. (We who were
disabled by them are still holding bake sales for our studies. You
know how that goes....).

And then along came this study.

The poster is my nemesis. If you have anything nasty, hostile,
gonad-ripping or otherwise pertinent to say about the study vis a vis
AIDS sufferers please direct your comments to him? You'll find him on
sci.med.cardiology.

I'm barely keeping my head above water over there. Guys. Usually my
nephew's help me out. They said... Never mind what they said. Cheeky
buggers.

Zee

From: listener (listener@nospam.net)
Subject: Heart Drugs May Target AIDS Virus, Study Shows
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: sci.med.cardiology
Date: 2004-08-16 15:04:28 PST

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Statin drugs that lower cholesterol levels and
reduce the risk of heart disease may also help slow down the AIDS
(news -
web sites) virus, Spanish researchers reported on Monday.

Statins alone given to HIV (news - web sites)-infected patients
suppressed the virus and helped replenish immune cells known as
T-cells
-- two key measures of health in patients with the virus.

The drugs seem to stop the virus from infecting cells by stopping them
from opening the cell membrane, and stop the virus from getting out of
already infected cells, the team at the Spanish Council for Scientific
Research in Madrid reported.

"Our results indicate that statins might be suitable antiretroviral
drugs
for more accessible AIDS treatment," the researchers report in
Monday's
issue of the Journal of Experimental Medicine.

Human immunodeficiency virus causes AIDS by infecting immune system
cells. The virus injects its genetic material into the cells and
forces
them to become virus factories, pumping out more copies of the virus.

Eventually the immune system is destroyed and patients die of a range
of
illnesses such as pneumonia. There is no cure and more than 25 million
people have died of AIDS globally.

Drugs called highly active antiretroviral therapy or HAART can
suppress
the virus and allow the immune system to function, but they are
expensive
and have side-effects.

One side-effect is called lipodystrophy, a series of metabolic changes
that can raise cholesterol levels and cause a redistribution of body
fat.

Patients with lipodystrophy are often given statins. Immunologist
Gustavo
del Real and colleagues wanted to see if the statins may themselves
affect the course of infection.

They first tested HIV-infected cells in a lab dish and then in mice.
"Results suggest that HIV-1 entry into and exit from the host cell
require actin cytoskeleton rearrangement and adequate cholesterol
levels
in host and viral membranes," they wrote in their report.

The cytoskeleton is the structure of the cell itself.

Then they tested six people infected with HIV who had not yet begun
HAART
therapy. They got lovastatin for a month.

Levels of the virus, measured by genetic material, fell and T-cell
count
went up. When the patients stopped taking the statin the viral levels
rebounded, the researchers reported.

"The data suggest that statins can inhibit HIV-1 replication in
chronically infected individuals, and support future clinical studies
of
statins as possible antiretroviral agents," the researchers concluded.

=======================================================================
But, I guess, because a significantly small percentage of statin users
experience side effects we should ignore this.....right wheeZee?

L.

Brian Mailman

2004-08-19, 11:06 am

fresh~horses wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> That's it then for me is it? I'm to be drawn and quartered at dawn?

You forgot the part about the fire ants.

B/

fresh~horses

2004-08-20, 7:08 pm

Brian Mailman <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message news:<10i9j8h3q0v8l2c@news.supernews.com>...
> fresh~horses wrote:
>
>
> You forgot the part about the fire ants.
>
> B/

Fire ants?! Is that the best you can do?

I've lived through mosquito and black fly infestations. And that was
just in my living room.

You're going to have to get some better than fire ants if you want to
roust a Canuck.

Zee

Brian Mailman

2004-08-20, 7:08 pm

fresh~horses wrote:

> You're going to have to get some better than fire ants if you want to
> roust a Canuck.

Q: How do Canadians get the paparazzi off the lawn?
A: They say, "Please get off the lawn."

B/

Brian Mailman

2004-08-21, 4:07 am

fresh~horses wrote:
> Brian Mailman <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message news:<10i79ea2g4qtr58@news.supernews.com>...
>
> Podiatrists, dentists, chiropractors and osteropaths: all call
> themselves doctors. Who conferes this on them? I don't know.

It's easy enough to find out.

>` ...(Who are you Brian?)

I am the walrus.

> The person who wrote that post has some valid information. Please
> don't throw it out with Mercola. <smile>

Anyone who cites Mercola to me is suspect. I've had the reason to read
some of his writings of late (I own a group on Yahoogroups and there's
been quite the controversy lately involving him, which is why I had my
friend on the ethics board check him out) and he's so full of
non-science, factoids that lead to speculation to other factoids I'm
afraid it's not a grain but dune of salt.

B/

fresh~horses

2004-08-21, 7:09 pm

Brian Mailman <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message news:<10id45scamacn58@news.supernews.com>...
> fresh~horses wrote:
>
>
> Q: How do Canadians get the paparazzi off the lawn?
> A: They say, "Please get off the lawn."
>
> B/

"Thank you."

Brian Mailman

2004-08-22, 4:06 am

fresh~horses wrote:

> I'm not the only one astonished and disgusted with this, check out Dr.
> Mercola's comment

I had a friend check (she's on the ethics board of NY State and has
access to all kinds of records). No medical degree ever given to anyone
with that name in whatever state it is, Illinois, Iowa, something like that.

B/

GMCarter

2004-08-22, 10:06 pm

On 17 Aug 2004 11:27:59 -0700, fresh~horses@despammed.com
(fresh~horses) wrote:

snip...
>
>Dear affected friend: I don't think it suggest that at all. "Statins
>alone given to HIV-infected patients suppressed the virus and helped
>replenish immune cells known as T-cells." Is that a "modest" effect? And
>if one has HIV and your future is death from AIDS the cost/risk/benefit
>is clear.

First, if you have the full article handy, I'd love to read it.
Second, modest is a bump of 10-20 T cells. AZT monotherapy did that
with little clinical benefit. Also, durability is important--how long
does the benefit last? Is it sustained? I'm genuinely asking as I have
not read the data.

>
>The study does not state that, but I agree: who cares?

LOL. True enough. Problems, though, may arise with interactions. E.g.,
the 3000+% increase in simvastatin levels when taken with protease
inhibitors ain't a good idea. Drug interaction issues may also
increase drug side effects....by contrast, pravastatin and, I think
fluvastatin, are pretty benign in terms of Cyp3A4 interactions.

>
>The study was not conducted with red rice yeast, so that comment
>meaningless.

LOL, no, it's not meaningless at all. However, further data would be
needed to evaluate red yeast rice used in people not on ARV (as
lovastatin IS problematic with ARV interactions).

>Once again, statins show potential to save lives while you do your best
>to frighten people away from them. (That's directed to you, not your
>affected friend.)

Nope. I want the best possible therapy that will help people with the
best possible information about absolute and relative risks of
interventions used, regardless of whether they are a drug or a
"dietary supplement."

George M. Carter

GMCarter

2004-08-22, 10:06 pm

Here is the original paper's abstract below. Unfortunately, the data
are limited. If anyone has access to the complete article, I'd love to
see it!

George M. Carter

**
http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/200/4/541?ct
The Journal of Experimental Medicine, 2004;Volume 200, Number 4,
541-547

Brief Definitive Report
Statins Inhibit HIV-1 Infection by Down-regulating Rho Activity
Gustavo del Real1, Sonia Jiménez-Baranda1, Emilia Mira1, Rosa Ana
Lacalle1, Pilar Lucas1, Concepción Gómez-Moutón1, Marta Alegret2, Jose
María Peña3, Manuel Rodríguez-Zapata4, Melchor Alvarez-Mon4, Carlos
Martínez-A.1, and Santos Mañes1

1 Department of Immunology and Oncology, Centro Nacional de
Biotecnología/Spanish Council for Scientific Research (CSIC), E-28049
Madrid, Spain
2 Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutical Chemistry, Facultad de
Farmacia, Universidad de Barcelona, E-08028 Barcelona, Spain
3 Department de Medicina, Servicio de Medicina Interna, Hospital La
Paz, E-28046 Madrid, Spain
4 Department of Diseases of the Immune System, School of Medicine,
Hospital Principe de Asturias, Universidad de Alcalá de Henares,
E-28801 Madrid, Spain

Address correspondence to Carlos Martínez-A., Dept. of Immunology and
Oncology, Centro Nacional de Biotecnología/CSIC, UAM Campus de
Cantoblanco, E-28049 Madrid, Spain. Phone: 34-91-585-4850; Fax:
34-91-372-0493; email: cmartineza@cnb.uam.es; or Santos Mañes, Dept.
of Immunology and Oncology, Centro Nacional de Biotecnología/CSIC, UAM
Campus de Cantoblanco, E-28049 Madrid, Spain. Phone: 34-91-585-4850;
Fax: 34-91-372-0493; email: smanes@cnb.uam.es

Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-1 infectivity requires
actin-dependent clustering of host lipid raft–associated receptors, a
process that might be linked to Rho guanosine triphosphatase (GTPase)
activation. Rho GTPase activity can be negatively regulated by
statins, a family of drugs used to treat hypercholesterolemia in man.
Statins mediate inhibition of Rho GTPases by impeding prenylation of
small G proteins through blockade of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl
coenzyme A reductase. We show that statins decreased viral load and
increased CD4+ cell counts in acute infection models and in
chronically HIV-1–infected patients. Viral entry and exit was reduced
in statin-treated cells, and inhibition was blocked by the addition of
L-mevalonate or of geranylgeranylpyrophosphate, but not by
cholesterol. Cell treatment with a geranylgeranyl transferase
inhibitor, but not a farnesyl transferase inhibitor, specifically
inhibited entry of HIV-1–pseudotyped viruses. Statins blocked Rho-A
activation induced by HIV-1 binding to target cells, and expression of
the dominant negative mutant RhoN19 inhibited HIV-1 envelope fusion
with target cell membranes, reducing cell infection rates. We suggest
that statins have direct anti–HIV-1 effects by targeting Rho.

Key Words: cholesterol • actin cytoskeleton • small GTPases • lipid
rafts • prenylation

fresh~horses

2004-08-23, 2:06 am

GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<qq45i09bdagjjg7ghul7a19uckr6abk23k@4ax.com>...

Again, for your files George, from a post by S. Hope on smc. Some of
this may be repeated on the previous list. Zee

IMMUNE SYSTEM AND STATINS
Frequently Asked Question: Can statins depress my immune system?

It is a tribute to the imaginations of the drug marketers to see how
successfully they have put positive "spin" on a very alarming
proposition,
that statins depress the immune system (or is it just arrogance?). If
the
known side effect of statins is to depress your immune system, and it
is so
beneficial to transplant recipients and others with autoimmune
disease, what
about people with pre-statin 'normal' immune systems?

I'm not the only one astonished and disgusted with this, check out Dr.
Mercola's comment (scroll down for his response to the article) on
http://www.mercola.com/2000/dec/24/statins.htm
Excerpts: "This is an amazing example of positive "spin" put on a very
negative result. People with high cholesterol certainly don't need
their
immune systems suppressed...If suppressing the helper T cells is
considered
such great benefit then there is a disease going around that does this
quite
well - AIDS...if the mechanism of action of the drug is not
understood, how
can the manufacturer or the FDA claim that it is safe"

It sounds like he is talking about this article
http://pub.ucsf.edu/today/print.php?news_id=200211062, but actually he
is
describing the last time the drug companies tried to feed us a myth
about
how great it is that statins depress immune systems (available for
online
purchase from Nature Medicine:

http://www.nature.com/dynasearch/ap...art_year=2000&i
ssue_end_month=01&issue_end_year=2001&pickerCount=You+have+selected+1+journal+to+search.&rolloverMessage=&sp_k=NM

Atorvastatin suppresses interferon-gamma -induced neopterin formation
and
tryptophan degradation in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells and
in
monocytic cell lines.

Neurauter G, Wirleitner B, Laich A, Schennach H, Weiss G, Fuchs D.
Summary: Recent findings indicate that statins also have
anti-inflammatory
properties and can modulate the immune response.statins inhibit T cell
activation within the cellular immune response.atorvastatin directly
inhibits IFN-gamma-mediated pathways in monocytic cells, suggesting
that
both immunoreactivity of T cells and of monocyte-derived macrophages
are
down-regulated by this statin.
Clin Exp Immunol 2003 Feb;131(2):264-7
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...6&dopt=Abstract

[Polymyositis induced or associated with lipid-lowering drugs: five
cases]
[Article in French]
Fauchais AL, Iba Ba J, Maurage P, Kyndt X, Bataille D, Hachulla E,
Parent D,
Queyrel V, Lambert M, Michon Pasturel U, Hatron PY, Vanhille P,
Devulder B.
Service de medecine interne A, CHU Dupuytren, 2, avenue
Martin-Luther-King,
87042 Limoges cedex, France. alfauchais@caramail.com
Recently, various auto-immune disease with evidence of
hypersensitivity to
HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors or fibrates drugs have been reported.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15050796

Statins as novel immunomodulators: from cell to potential clinical
benefit.
Mach F.
Cardiology Division, Department of Medicine, university Hospital,
Geneva
Medical School, Foundation for Medical Research, Geneva, Switzerland.
Francois.Mach@medicine.unige.ch
Thromb Haemost. 2003 Oct;90(4):607-10. Review.
PMID: 14515180 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=14515180

Role of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme a reductase inhibitors,
angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors, cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitors,
and
aspirin in anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory treatment of
cardiovascular diseases.
Schieffer B, Drexler H.
Am J Cardiol. 2003 Jun 19;91(12A):12H-18H. Review.
PMID: 12818730 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
"This article reviews the potential immunomodulatory potencies of
aspirin,
COX-2 inhibitors, statins, and ACE inhibitors as established
pharmacotherapy
in patients with coronary artery disease."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=12818730

A novel anti-inflammatory role for simvastatin in inflammatory
arthritis.
Leung BP, Sattar N, Crilly A, Prach M, McCarey DW, Payne H, Madhok R,
Campbell C, Gracie JA, Liew FY, McInnes IB.
J Immunol. 2003 Feb 1;170(3):1524-30.
PMID: 12538717 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...7&dopt=Abstract

Immunomodulation: a new role for statins?
Wulf Palinski
SUMMARY: Statins reduce the expression of the class II major
histocompatibility complex (MHCII) by arterial cells, leading to a
decreased
T-cell response. This indicates that statins...
Nature Medicine6, 1311 - 1312 (01 Dec 2000) News and Views

HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors as immunomodulators: potential use in
transplant rejection.
Raggatt LJ, Partridge NC.
These findings suggest that statins have the potential to regulate an
immune
response in vivo and that more investigation is essential in order to
explain the opposing clinical data.
Drugs. 2002;62(15):2185-91.
PMID: 12381218 [PubMed - in process]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...8&dopt=Abstract

Statins as a newly recognized type of immunomodulator
Brenda Kwak, Flore Mulhaupt, Samir Myit, François Mach
SUMMARY: Inhibitors of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA)
reductase, or statins, are effective lipid-lowering agents,
extensively used
in medical practice. Statins have never been shown to...
Nature Medicine 6, 1399 - 1402 (01 Dec 2000) Article

and could a depressed immune system lead to infection? See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...0&dopt=Abstract
Statin-induced fibrotic nonspecific interstitial pneumonia.
Eur Respir J. 2002 Mar;19(3):577-80.
PMID: 11936540 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> Here is the original paper's abstract below. Unfortunately, the data
> are limited. If anyone has access to the complete article, I'd love to
> see it!
>
> George M. Carter
>
> **
> http://www.jem.org/cgi/content/abstract/200/4/541?ct
> The Journal of Experimental Medicine, 2004;Volume 200, Number 4,
> 541-547
>
> Brief Definitive Report
> Statins Inhibit HIV-1 Infection by Down-regulating Rho Activity
> Gustavo del Real1, Sonia Jiménez-Baranda1, Emilia Mira1, Rosa Ana
> Lacalle1, Pilar Lucas1, Concepción Gómez-Moutón1, Marta Alegret2, Jose
> María Peña3, Manuel Rodríguez-Zapata4, Melchor Alvarez-Mon4, Carlos
> Martínez-A.1, and Santos Mañes1
>
> 1 Department of Immunology and Oncology, Centro Nacional de
> Biotecnología/Spanish Council for Scientific Research (CSIC), E-28049
> Madrid, Spain
> 2 Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutical Chemistry, Facultad de
> Farmacia, Universidad de Barcelona, E-08028 Barcelona, Spain
> 3 Department de Medicina, Servicio de Medicina Interna, Hospital La
> Paz, E-28046 Madrid, Spain
> 4 Department of Diseases of the Immune System, School of Medicine,
> Hospital Principe de Asturias, Universidad de Alcalá de Henares,
> E-28801 Madrid, Spain
>
> Address correspondence to Carlos Martínez-A., Dept. of Immunology and
> Oncology, Centro Nacional de Biotecnología/CSIC, UAM Campus de
> Cantoblanco, E-28049 Madrid, Spain. Phone: 34-91-585-4850; Fax:
> 34-91-372-0493; email: cmartineza@cnb.uam.es; or Santos Mañes, Dept.
> of Immunology and Oncology, Centro Nacional de Biotecnología/CSIC, UAM
> Campus de Cantoblanco, E-28049 Madrid, Spain. Phone: 34-91-585-4850;
> Fax: 34-91-372-0493; email: smanes@cnb.uam.es
>
> Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-1 infectivity requires
> actin-dependent clustering of host lipid raft?associated receptors, a
> process that might be linked to Rho guanosine triphosphatase (GTPase)
> activation. Rho GTPase activity can be negatively regulated by
> statins, a family of drugs used to treat hypercholesterolemia in man.
> Statins mediate inhibition of Rho GTPases by impeding prenylation of
> small G proteins through blockade of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl
> coenzyme A reductase. We show that statins decreased viral load and
> increased CD4+ cell counts in acute infection models and in
> chronically HIV-1?infected patients. Viral entry and exit was reduced
> in statin-treated cells, and inhibition was blocked by the addition of
> L-mevalonate or of geranylgeranylpyrophosphate, but not by
> cholesterol. Cell treatment with a geranylgeranyl transferase
> inhibitor, but not a farnesyl transferase inhibitor, specifically
> inhibited entry of HIV-1?pseudotyped viruses. Statins blocked Rho-A
> activation induced by HIV-1 binding to target cells, and expression of
> the dominant negative mutant RhoN19 inhibited HIV-1 envelope fusion
> with target cell membranes, reducing cell infection rates. We suggest
> that statins have direct anti?HIV-1 effects by targeting Rho.
>
> Key Words: cholesterol ? actin cytoskeleton ? small GTPases ? lipid
> rafts ? prenylation

fresh~horses

2004-08-23, 2:06 am

fresh~horses

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

fresh~horses@despammed.com (fresh~horses) wrote in message news:<abf8de5b.0408172129.546145df@posting.google.com>...

For Brian Mailman regarding the post below:

Mercola and Hope are giving opinion. I think Mercola is an osteopath.
Hope is the wife of a man completely disabled by statins.

This was not given as fact but opinion; something to consider in our
search for answers and ways. I personally do not take anyone's word,
whether MD or educated advocate, without checking and a huge grain of
salt. I do not myself accept anything Mercola says. I think he's a
wing nut. But sometimes even wing nuts have some insight to offer even
if it's just something else to cross off.

<smile> Zee

> GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<qq45i09bdagjjg7ghul7a19uckr6abk23k@4ax.com>...
>
>
> Again, for your files George, from a post by S. Hope on smc. Some of
> this may be repeated on the previous list. Zee
>
> IMMUNE SYSTEM AND STATINS
> Frequently Asked Question: Can statins depress my immune system?
>
> It is a tribute to the imaginations of the drug marketers to see how
> successfully they have put positive "spin" on a very alarming
> proposition,
> that statins depress the immune system (or is it just arrogance?). If
> the
> known side effect of statins is to depress your immune system, and it
> is so
> beneficial to transplant recipients and others with autoimmune
> disease, what
> about people with pre-statin 'normal' immune systems?
>
> I'm not the only one astonished and disgusted with this, check out Dr.
> Mercola's comment (scroll down for his response to the article) on
> http://www.mercola.com/2000/dec/24/statins.htm
> Excerpts: "This is an amazing example of positive "spin" put on a very
> negative result. People with high cholesterol certainly don't need
> their
> immune systems suppressed...If suppressing the helper T cells is
> considered
> such great benefit then there is a disease going around that does this
> quite
> well - AIDS...if the mechanism of action of the drug is not
> understood, how
> can the manufacturer or the FDA claim that it is safe"
>
> It sounds like he is talking about this article
> http://pub.ucsf.edu/today/print.php?news_id=200211062, but actually he
> is
> describing the last time the drug companies tried to feed us a myth
> about
> how great it is that statins depress immune systems (available for
> online
> purchase from Nature Medicine:
>
> http://www.nature.com/dynasearch/ap...start_year=2000
&issue_end_month=01&issue_end_year=2001&pickerCount=You+have+selected+1+journal+to+search.&rolloverMessage=&sp_k=NM[vbcol=seagreen]
>
> Atorvastatin suppresses interferon-gamma -induced neopterin formation
> and
> tryptophan degradation in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells and
> in
> monocytic cell lines.
>
> Neurauter G, Wirleitner B, Laich A, Schennach H, Weiss G, Fuchs D.
> Summary: Recent findings indicate that statins also have
> anti-inflammatory
> properties and can modulate the immune response.statins inhibit T cell
> activation within the cellular immune response.atorvastatin directly
> inhibits IFN-gamma-mediated pathways in monocytic cells, suggesting
> that
> both immunoreactivity of T cells and of monocyte-derived macrophages
> are
> down-regulated by this statin.
> Clin Exp Immunol 2003 Feb;131(2):264-7
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...6&dopt=Abstract
>
> [Polymyositis induced or associated with lipid-lowering drugs: five
> cases]
> [Article in French]
> Fauchais AL, Iba Ba J, Maurage P, Kyndt X, Bataille D, Hachulla E,
> Parent D,
> Queyrel V, Lambert M, Michon Pasturel U, Hatron PY, Vanhille P,
> Devulder B.
> Service de medecine interne A, CHU Dupuytren, 2, avenue
> Martin-Luther-King,
> 87042 Limoges cedex, France. alfauchais@caramail.com
> Recently, various auto-immune disease with evidence of
> hypersensitivity to
> HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors or fibrates drugs have been reported.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=15050796
>
> Statins as novel immunomodulators: from cell to potential clinical
> benefit.
> Mach F.
> Cardiology Division, Department of Medicine, university Hospital,
> Geneva
> Medical School, Foundation for Medical Research, Geneva, Switzerland.
> Francois.Mach@medicine.unige.ch
> Thromb Haemost. 2003 Oct;90(4):607-10. Review.
> PMID: 14515180 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=14515180
>
> Role of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme a reductase inhibitors,
> angiotensin-converting enzyme inhibitors, cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitors,
> and
> aspirin in anti-inflammatory and immunomodulatory treatment of
> cardiovascular diseases.
> Schieffer B, Drexler H.
> Am J Cardiol. 2003 Jun 19;91(12A):12H-18H. Review.
> PMID: 12818730 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
> "This article reviews the potential immunomodulatory potencies of
> aspirin,
> COX-2 inhibitors, statins, and ACE inhibitors as established
> pharmacotherapy
> in patients with coronary artery disease."
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...t_uids=12818730
>
> A novel anti-inflammatory role for simvastatin in inflammatory
> arthritis.
> Leung BP, Sattar N, Crilly A, Prach M, McCarey DW, Payne H, Madhok R,
> Campbell C, Gracie JA, Liew FY, McInnes IB.
> J Immunol. 2003 Feb 1;170(3):1524-30.
> PMID: 12538717 [PubMed - in process]
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...7&dopt=Abstract
>
> Immunomodulation: a new role for statins?
> Wulf Palinski
> SUMMARY: Statins reduce the expression of the class II major
> histocompatibility complex (MHCII) by arterial cells, leading to a
> decreased
> T-cell response. This indicates that statins...
> Nature Medicine6, 1311 - 1312 (01 Dec 2000) News and Views
>
> HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors as immunomodulators: potential use in
> transplant rejection.
> Raggatt LJ, Partridge NC.
> These findings suggest that statins have the potential to regulate an
> immune
> response in vivo and that more investigation is essential in order to
> explain the opposing clinical data.
> Drugs. 2002;62(15):2185-91.
> PMID: 12381218 [PubMed - in process]
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...8&dopt=Abstract
>
> Statins as a newly recognized type of immunomodulator
> Brenda Kwak, Flore Mulhaupt, Samir Myit, François Mach
> SUMMARY: Inhibitors of 3-hydroxy-3-methylglutaryl coenzyme A (HMG-CoA)
> reductase, or statins, are effective lipid-lowering agents,
> extensively used
> in medical practice. Statins have never been shown to...
> Nature Medicine 6, 1399 - 1402 (01 Dec 2000) Article
>
> and could a depressed immune system lead to infection? See:
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...0&dopt=Abstract
> Statin-induced fibrotic nonspecific interstitial pneumonia.
> Eur Respir J. 2002 Mar;19(3):577-80.
> PMID: 11936540 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Brian Mailman

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

fresh~horses wrote:

> fresh~horses@despammed.com (fresh~horses) wrote in message news:<abf8de5b.0408172129.546145df@posting.google.com>...
>
>
> For Brian Mailman regarding the post below:
>
> Mercola and Hope are giving opinion. I think Mercola is an osteopath.

(massive snip)

No records of of any kind of medical degree given to anyone in that state.

Now, you're correct we never know where we will find truth or insight.
And if "Dr." Mercola was writing as a layman it's possible whatever it
is he says might be more accepted. But he's not. He's using the title
to bolster the credibility of his arguments and therefore the validity
of that title comes into play.

B/

fresh~horses

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

Brian Mailman <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message news:<10i79ea2g4qtr58@news.supernews.com>...
> fresh~horses wrote:
>
>
> (massive snip)
>
> No records of of any kind of medical degree given to anyone in that state.
>
> Now, you're correct we never know where we will find truth or insight.
> And if "Dr." Mercola was writing as a layman it's possible whatever it
> is he says might be more accepted. But he's not. He's using the title
> to bolster the credibility of his arguments and therefore the validity
> of that title comes into play.
>
> B/

Podiatrists, dentists, chiropractors and osteropaths: all call
themselves doctors. Who conferes this on them? I don't know. As for
believeing in them: I'm an atheist. Find out who is what when you
check into a website. (Who are you Brian?)

The person who wrote that post has some valid information. Please
don't throw it out with Mercola. <smile>

Zee

fresh~horses

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

Brian Mailman <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message news:<10i79ea2g4qtr58@news.supernews.com>...
> fresh~horses wrote:
>
>
> (massive snip)
>
> No records of of any kind of medical degree given to anyone in that state.
>
> Now, you're correct we never know where we will find truth or insight.
> And if "Dr." Mercola was writing as a layman it's possible whatever it
> is he says might be more accepted. But he's not. He's using the title
> to bolster the credibility of his arguments and therefore the validity
> of that title comes into play.
>
> B/

Podiatrists, dentists, chiropractors and osteropaths: all call
themselves doctors. Who conferes this on them? I don't know. As for
believing in them: I'm an atheist. Find out who is what when you check
into a website. (Who are you Brian?)

The person who wrote that post has some valid information. Please
don't throw it out with Mercola. <smile>

Zee

fresh~horses

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

Brian Mailman <bmailman@sfo.invalid> wrote in message news:<10i835kd192on09@news.supernews.com>...
> fresh~horses wrote:
>
> It's easy enough to find out.
>
>
> I am the walrus.
>
>
> Anyone who cites Mercola to me is suspect. I've had the reason to read
> some of his writings of late (I own a group on Yahoogroups and there's
> been quite the controversy lately involving him, which is why I had my
> friend on the ethics board check him out) and he's so full of
> non-science, factoids that lead to speculation to other factoids I'm
> afraid it's not a grain but dune of salt.
>
> B/

That's it then for me is it? I'm to be drawn and quartered at dawn?

Zee

Brian Mailman

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

fresh~horses wrote:
[vbcol=seagreen]
> That's it then for me is it? I'm to be drawn and quartered at dawn?

You forgot the part about the fire ants.

B/

GMCarter

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

On 16 Aug 2004 21:36:44 -0700, fresh~horses@despammed.com
(fresh~horses) wrote:

snip
>Levels of the virus, measured by genetic material, fell and T-cell
>count went up. When the patients stopped taking the statin the viral levels
>rebounded, the researchers reported.

I think this suggests that there may be a modest benefit from
statins--tho they don't say how MUCH of an effect. What is the
cost/risk/ benefit? Who knows?

It may merely be that the statin is having an effect on blood drug
levels of protease inhibitors or non-nuke drugs as opposed to a direct
effect though if there is a benefit, who cares?

Interestingly, that suggests red yeast rice may be a useful
intervention. MUCH cheaper, too.

George M. Carter

fresh~horses

2004-08-25, 11:09 am

GMCarter <fiar@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<2hq3i0t0flm9bdi9bv056nc4ke7j6r6t4r@4ax.com>...

George

The OP said this in response to your thoughts. Never knew he could be polite....

Zee

>
> snip
> snip
>
> I think this suggests that there may be a modest benefit from
> statins--tho they don't say how MUCH of an effect. What is the
> cost/risk/ benefit? Who knows?

Dear affected friend: I don't think it suggest that at all. "Statins
alone given to HIV-infected patients suppressed the virus and helped
replenish immune cells known as T-cells." Is that a "modest" effect? And
if one has HIV and your future is death from AIDS the cost/risk/benefit
is clear.

> It may merely be that the statin is having an effect on blood drug
> levels of protease inhibitors or non-nuke drugs as opposed to a direct
> effect though if there is a benefit, who cares?

The study does not state that, but I agree: who cares?

> Interestingly, that suggests red yeast rice may be a useful
> intervention. MUCH cheaper, too."

The study was not conducted with red rice yeast, so that comment
meaningless.

Once again, statins show potential to save lives while you do your best
to frighten people away from them. (That's directed to you, not your
affected friend.)

L.

>

[vbcol=seagreen]
> On 16 Aug 2004 21:36:44 -0700, fresh~horses@despammed.com
> (fresh~horses) wrote:
>
> snip
>
> I think this suggests that there may be a modest benefit from
> statins--tho they don't say how MUCH of an effect. What is the
> cost/risk/ benefit? Who knows?
>
> It may merely be that the statin is having an effect on blood drug
> levels of protease inhibitors or non-nuke drugs as opposed to a direct
> effect though if there is a benefit, who cares?
>
> Interestingly, that suggests red yeast rice may be a useful
> intervention. MUCH cheaper, too.
>
> George M. Carter

GMCarter

2004-08-25, 11:10 am

Thanks for the various citations. I will look into them!

There are other issues with the efficacy of statins over the long term
as some have pointed out elsewhere. For example, the absolute risk is
perhaps relatively low so a large-appearing reduction in relative risk
may have little effect on all-cause mortality rates.

I think it is difficult to undertake the appropriate risk/benefit/cost
analyses--but the horrifically high costs of these drugs rather puts a
damper on any long-term benefit, except perhaps for people in very
high risk categories.

Diet modification is possible. Quitting smoking. Getting more
exercise...these are more beneficial means. Additionally, a variety of
agents may work as well to modulate blood lipid levels (including
improving HDL and reducing triglycerides, neither of which statins do
very well). Fish oils, policosanols, pantethine, niacin and carnitine,
alone or in combination may be as effective and far healthier, far
cheaper alternatives. Clinical data are desperately needed. We might
get it once the statin patents run out which will start happening over
the next 3-5 years (perhaps why there is a push to get more people on
them to rake in some more bucks before the golden goose expires).

George M. Carter

fresh~horses

2004-08-27, 2:06 am

Brian Mailman

2004-08-27, 7:08 pm